Why did he crash ?


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Scooters
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Why did he crash ?

Post by Scooters » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:40 pm



In trying to learn from others mistakes. Do you ever watch bike crash videos and try to analyze what went wrong?

I'm not talking about those crazy wheel standers- omg how they ride on one wheel amazes me and scary to watch.

Some are very talented I'll admit.

But other cases where a single biker crashes, many cases I fail to see what the cause was.

Do you guys try to analyze the crash?



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AZgl1800
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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by AZgl1800 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:56 pm

Most definitely:

and usually if you review it often enough, you can pick out where it all went wrong.

This is much like Monday Quarterback comments.
The asshat commenter is just talking thru his exhaust hole.

He was not the person that was running on his own two feet and having to make a 'Right Now' decision based on what he can ascertain 'Right Now'.

But, it is useful to watch all of them and try to figure out how it all got started.
And in every accident report I have seen, they all comment that it is a series of decisions that by themselves would have no adverse effect.

but when they start compounding, the result is that in a twisty, the front wheel gets off the pavement and into the gravel, or down off the pavement into loose sand, or hits a guard rail.

it is what led up to that point in time that is critical, and it is always the result of several wrong judgement calls.

#1 bad call:
Trying to stay on fender of the guy in front. You just lost your perspective as to what is coming up.
You should be looking up front, where "you are going to go", and not where that guy's fender was the last time you saw it and crashed.

#2 Not leaving yourself enough room.
I follow the guy in front about 5-7 seconds behind him. That just literally drives most folks insane, "I can't see you in the mirror". Well duh, that mirror is convex, and anything further back than about 100 feet is too small to see.

Sorry, but I will NOT adhere to always being seen in someone's rear view mirror.
It is my ride, and I am the boss, and I WILL BE 5-7 seconds behind you....
and yes, I count the seconds from when the guy in front passes a marker.

I have already been hit by an 18 wheeler, it was his fault at the time.

But, I was at a 45 degree angle to his left rear duals, his ABS brakes did not work, when he hit the brakes, the truck made an immediate left turn hard.... and I had about 2 seconds to do something.

I can still to this day, Remember Exactly what happened just prior to this accident.
I observed the other lanes jamming up solid because of rush hour stop and go....
I remember saying I am in a Bad Spot!
Do I down-shift to 4th and hit wide open throttle,
OR, do I hit the brakes hard now!

and I woke up in the hospital 6 days later.





Last edited by AZgl1800 on Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
~John

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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by AZgl1800 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:59 pm

I am glad that you brought this up.
It made me wonder where did all of those pictures go that were taken by the Department of Public Safety Accident Investigator?

I was given a CD with them, and it has been lost.
Photobucket has chosen to seal them forever lost.

So, I started drifting back through old TB sized backup drives, and I found them, buried deep in a folder below two other folders named something useless.

Here is a picture that shows that I had 5 lane stripes to do something to avoid this....
Avoid is the wrong word, there was no avoiding this one, unless I had been 7 seconds behind him and then I would have been able to swerve to the right as his truck climbed the center median.

I was in the HOV lane, when he went left, my fate was sealed, Right There.
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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by Scooters » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:39 am

Wow AZ, that sure was an unfortunate situation you were in.

I watch the YouTube videos- no commentary there to describe what happened.

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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by minimac » Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:00 am

An accident investigator will tell you that there is almost always something the motorcyclist could have done differently to avoid an accident. Sometimes it is positioning to the others on the road, other times(most) it is being aware of and alert to what's going on or could happen, around the rider. A very small percentage of the time, there is absolutely nothing that could be done differently-that's why they're called accidents. Hindsight is 20/20 though.

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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by AZgl1800 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:30 am

Yup,

if we are honest, we can "always" avoid the accident usually.

Even the T-bone accidents at intersections, I never go through one unless I can see that traffic is clear far enough back that I can get across safely. The Signal lights just mean you have the right of way, it don't mean the AssHat coming from your side is paying any attention to the Yellow/Red light at all.

I get honked at a lot at intersections, but I refuse to pull through until I can see both ways, or I have the benefit of a large vehicle playing interference for me. I will let an 18 wheeler pull forward about 20 feet before I move at a Green light and I cannot see the other side.
~John

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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by minimac » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:14 am

It's sad, but if most cagers would just try a little courtesy, common sense, and pay attention, I'd be willing to bet at least 90% of car/bike crashes could be eliminated. But since the majority don't or won't, that responsibility falls upon us in addition to our own. Riding can't be made safe, but it can be made safer!

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PastoT
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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by PastoT » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:59 pm

I always take interest in the news articles about cycle crashes here in Idaho. Generally only get the local SW news items but its pretty obvious that the there is a huge trend in the 25 fatalities in Idaho this last year.

- Left turns being rushed across oncoming traffic either by the motorcyclist or the other vehicle
- Carrying too much speed into corners and thus breaching there lane and departing the road.

This year I only read of a couple in which the rider was wearing a helmet or any protective gear.
I always take note of videos captured and published to evaluate what could have been done. Strangely they are typically situations I wouldn't have put myself into to begin with. Call me paranoid but there are times I simply get off the road or stay off the road for a while to avoid congested traffic at speed, over speed groups, and always maintain a large following gap and an eye on everyone even near me for distracted drivers and crippled looking vehicles; I like my personal space nice and roomy!
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AZgl1800
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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by AZgl1800 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:47 pm

you and me both.

I refuse to ride through Tulsa at peak travel periods, it just simply is NOT safe at any speed.
the other vehicles are piloted by remote control via their telephonic device, the other person they are talking to, has to tell them to "watch out!! I hear a horn" before that driver actually wakes up and notices what is around them.

I too look at those pictures, or videos if available, and it is very easy to Monday Quarterback and say "what a stupid idiot xyz was" they should have seen that coming.

uh huh, and so should I in my accident.
In fact, I actually did realize that I just might have a problem coming up in mine.
The semi tractor was 45 degrees to my right forward position, my bike was about 20 feet behind his left rear duals. I saw traffic backing up and realized he was going way too fast and had to hit the brakes or take my open HOV lane.....

I remember thinking, "down shift and pass him if I have time? or hit the brakes and back off?"
and then I woke up in the hospital 7 days later, still in ICU recovery with 3 concussions.
and that with wearing a helmet when I got hit, but that helmet came off!!!

it can be seen on the highway between my bike and the truck, next to the median wall.
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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by Metal Mangler » Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:20 am

I am sorry to hear. I hope all is well now. I got rear ended 28 Dec. 2016 I have thought long and hard about the accident but not sure what I could have done. I always look behind me to see if the approaching vehicle is stopping when I realized it was not seconds later it was to late I did have a space between me and the vehicle in front of me. But not for long they hit me and I then hit the vehicle in front of me. I came out of it with some cuts and broken bones but no long term back or neck problems. It was a four lane road I was in the inside lane. A 45 mph speed area. Got thrown into the outside lane I immediately started to scurry to the side of road and did not get run over. So if i had time I could have switched lanes I had room and always leave in gear. It has made me more aware. Not sure how to prevent in future. And I also had to keep people from trying to take off my helmet. Everyone was very helpful calling EMT and all but the helmet thing I thought everyone knew not to mess with it. Thanks for your post.
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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by Metal Mangler » Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:44 am

Was following the news letter topics. When I was reading the tire post saw more info on your accident. Glad to hear your still riding gives me some hope for myself. Sorry about the long term effects of the accident. Take care .
Marvin (Shep) Shepard
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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by Apatz » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:30 am

I will say that I feel that some accidents may be unavoidable. Case in point. Last year (2017) a friend of one and his wife were on a bike trip to Ohio. They were in town in light traffic and moving at the speed limit in the right lane. An SUV was in the left lane with his left turn signal on and slowing down to make a left turn. Just as they were alongside the SUV made an immediate right turn from the left lane of a 4 lane road. Directly into them. They survived with multiple broken bones, bruises, and contusions. The bike didn’t. During the accident analysis by the Ohio Police it was determined there was absolutely nothing they could have done.

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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by captscotty » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:01 pm

Last year a recently wed couple was riding along a state hwy between Aubrey and Pilot Point TX, two miles from our house. They were at the posted limit of 60mph. Very wide undivided road, with an apparently parked P/U truck over in the wide emergency lane. Well it wasn’t parked but contained one drunk a-hole who proceeded to do a Uturn without clearing...right out in front of the Harley. Killed them instantly we heard. There are some accidents we can’t avoid like John’s.

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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by SlowTyper » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:56 pm

While a few accidents can be deemed unavoidable, I think the vast majority could be mitigated veto some extent or even avoided altogether.

I believe the vast majority of motorclysts are unable to execute a panic stop. Some will even avoid the front brake altogether, fearful they will lock the front tire.

Thus, I believe many of us would do well to practice this at ever increasing speeds periodically. Unfortunately, I find myself failing to practice this skill frequently enough.

Back in the day I did maintain this skill, I had to use it when a very elderly person pulled out directly in front off me on a curve. I couldn't swerve left because of an oncoming vehicle, and the right shoulder was mostly nonexistent along a very deep ditch. I did my best, getting my speed down to 15MPH before impact. I actually left a light 45' curved skid mark with my front tire.

Thanks for the post; I will work to get my panic stop skills back up to where they should be.

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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by Squishy Tia » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:31 pm

I would love an honest look at the huge rash of accidents that have happened here in California ever since Idiot Brown™ decided (along with the CHP of all people!) that lane splitting being legal was a good thing. Ever since that law went into effect, motorcycle deaths have skyrocketed here in the SF bay area. And the vast majority of them have been found to be motorcyclists splitting lanes and going in and out between cars. I've actually had my left mirror hit by not one but two lane splitters.

I drive fairly defensively, so I leave myself enough room to make maneuvers whenever possible, but when it comes to drivers weaving in and out of traffic via lane splitting there really isn't a whole lot I can do to mitigate what's going to happen when the **** hits the fan. And the few motorcycle drivers I've seen here that don't lane split have fairly often had to make some fancy maneuvers of their own when others that did came into extremely close proximity to them.

I'm honestly curious as to why the CHP of all organizations would want to legalize something they know is going to lead to more deaths when every other state outlaws the practice for a reason. Maybe if some within their ranks analyzed crashes like some of you do, they wouldn't be so stubbornly stupid.

I'm rather grateful my grandpa's 2014 Goldwing/CSC trike can't lane split. Of course even as a former two-wheeler driver and motorcycle cop 40 years ago, he's adamantly against lane splitting and can't figure out why people want to endanger themselves with potential accidents like that. I'm also rather pissed that so many motorcycle drivers are so blasé about it, because to me that's a pretty huge insult to those motorcyclists driving legitimately and defensively that can't avoid the accidents that happen to them despite their best efforts. I drive by accident scenes like the one pictured in this thread almost on a daily basis now and it disgusts me that people don't seem to be using a lick of common sense to avoid such a fate.

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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by captscotty » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:52 pm

SlowTyper wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:56 pm

I believe the vast majority of motorclysts are unable to execute a panic stop. Some will even avoid the front brake altogether, fearful they will lock the front tire.
I agree! The Goldwing gross weight and ABS are a formidable team when panic stops or decels are needed. Have done a couple real ones straight away, but not in a turn. Don’t be afraid of the front brake (of course we should know that even stomping solely on the rear brake gives you front brake also through the interconnect...but not as much as you might need) This big bike will stop well!!

Just pray circumstances give you the reaction time to make that “panic stop OR downshift 100% throttle” decision.

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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by AZgl1800 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:49 pm

I was asked if there are more pictures of my accident back in Jan '08.

They used to be on PhotoBucket, but they asked $400/year to allow you to look at them,
so, I moved them to Facebook, and uploaded about 120 pictures in 45 minutes.

Look for my Accident Album

https://www.facebook.com/JohnTcraigJr

Some of them are not oriented correctly, I noticed that after they uploaded.
Eventually, I will fix that.
~John

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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by brettchallenger » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:27 am

Sorry, but I will NOT adhere to always being seen in someone's rear view mirror.
It is my ride, and I am the boss, and I WILL BE 5-7 seconds behind you....
If you are at least 5 seconds behind the vehicle in front then I cannot see any circumstances where you will not be in that driver's mirrors at anything but very modest speeds.
Never trust a nation whose armed forces goose-step

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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by AZgl1800 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:44 pm

brettchallenger wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:27 am
Sorry, but I will NOT adhere to always being seen in someone's rear view mirror.
It is my ride, and I am the boss, and I WILL BE 5-7 seconds behind you....
If you are at least 5 seconds behind the vehicle in front then I cannot see any circumstances where you will not be in that driver's mirrors at anything but very modest speeds.

didn't go back and look, but I think that quote is from one of my posts.

What I was referring to, is that my riding buddies want me to be "full screen" in their mirrors...
and with my following distance usually being about 7 seconds, my image in their mirrors is so small, that it takes them too much time to try and find me, when their eyes should be on the road up ahead.

as my Low Beams are 35 watt HID, and I always have my High Beams on during daylight hours, they don't have any trouble finding me since we all converted to HID lights.
~John

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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by brettchallenger » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:44 am

What I was referring to, is that my riding buddies want me to be "full screen" in their mirrors...
Ah, sorry. I thought you were referring to lorry drivers, the ones with long, high trailers.
Never trust a nation whose armed forces goose-step

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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by keithg64 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:35 am

I also believed that most all accidents can be avoided in one way or the other and its not one single thing that may have caused the accident but several circumstance leading up to it.
I hit a deer about 12 years ago going down out local road at 55 mph. I saw the deer from a distance and thought that the deer was going to hit the car that was at least 200 yards it from of me. It did, then it came back up the road and hit me, throwing me from my bike. I did absolutely nothing, I didn't slow down, I didn't apply my brakes, I didn't swerve. Nothing. I did slide on the road braking my collar bone and the bike faired about the same with a lot of road rash. I was wearing a helmet and all the other gear.
What most of us are saying is to be aware of the situation and our surroundings and learn from others.
Since the accident I have taken 4 msc experienced riders courses. Read and reread proficient motorcycling, and the books alike. I have been involved with our local cma chapter about motorcycle awareness. I am involved with our local msc beginners riding classes. I stay up on parking lot practices. and I have recently subscribed to a you tube channel of MCRider, which is a online motorcycle training and road strategy you tube channel.
The goal is to always stay on top of the training and don't let your guard down.
It's not what you buy, it's what you build.

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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by AZgl1800 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:57 am

Your very last sentence, says it all:



The goal is to always stay on top of the training and don't let your guard down.
~John

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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by mark4Jesus » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:13 pm

I think I may see, but, do you know where you ended up at when everything came to a stop?

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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by AZgl1800 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:52 pm

mark4Jesus wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:13 pm
I think I may see, but, do you know where you ended up at when everything came to a stop?
oh yes, about 6 days later, I was in ICU looking at a very pretty nurse.... :)

the whole thing really scared my family, my son flew into Phoenix, AZ from San Mateo, CA and then he called him mom who was up in Ft. Wayne, IN and told her that he did not think that I was going to make it..... that first week, from what I can determine was really touch and go, the doctors had me on an induced coma to let the swelling go down in my skull....

I had a frontal concussion, a top concussion zig zagged front to back, and a rear concussion.... I must really have rattled around in that helmet before it came off..... it was laying on the ground after the crash ended..... the how, it came off, is unknown....

the investigator wrote down "not wearing helmet", which is not the truth, I won't get on the bike w/o that helmet.
~John

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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by minimac » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:58 am

Somewhat related-a good read for a slow day.

https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/m ... 20Combined



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