Why did he crash ?


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mark4Jesus
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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by mark4Jesus » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:31 pm



AZgl1800 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:52 pm
mark4Jesus wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:13 pm
I think I may see, but, do you know where you ended up at when everything came to a stop?
oh yes, about 6 days later, I was in ICU looking at a very pretty nurse.... :)

the whole thing really scared my family, my son flew into Phoenix, AZ from San Mateo, CA and then he called him mom who was up in Ft. Wayne, IN and told her that he did not think that I was going to make it..... that first week, from what I can determine was really touch and go, the doctors had me on an induced coma to let the swelling go down in my skull....

I had a frontal concussion, a top concussion zig zagged front to back, and a rear concussion.... I must really have rattled around in that helmet before it came off..... it was laying on the ground after the crash ended..... the how, it came off, is unknown....

the investigator wrote down "not wearing helmet", which is not the truth, I won't get on the bike w/o that helmet.
Wow! At least you didn't wake up to some burly, hairly, guy nurse! I didn't word my question very well after re-reading it. Do you know where you were laying in relation to your bike?



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AZgl1800
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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by AZgl1800 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:54 pm

Ihave read that Revzilla article before, and it is a good one.

and, as they stated, that report only included Orange County in Caifornia...
what a waste of taxpayer money....

no rural roads, no states w/o helmet laws....

those of us who ride a lot of rural roads, and I bet I am not alone on this, I hate the intersections the most. You know the kind, you just went into a dip and just as you crest the hill top and start down again, there is a Stop Sign there for you and a tractor pulling across and pulling a hay wagon.

I use my 7 inch GPS mounted dead center on the handlebars w/o a route programmed into it, that way it shows me the cross roads that are coming up... even when I know the road very well, it still helps me.
~John

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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by Scooters » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:12 pm

Interesting comments - now for another view:

Some of the Single rider accidents-no car, which can be seen on YouTube , are the ones I found to be difficult to understand , which is why I posed the question.
Some spils it is obvious, after watching 50 minutes of these videos... but some are not.
I wish I knew how to take a clip and post it here for discussion .

I guess I could post a link, but watching these things may not be good!

Any clip thoughts?

PS
I'm reviving a 1985 honda 150 Elite. My significant other intends to learn how to ride it... Of course not being a rider, she has no clue of road strategy that a
motorcyclist must learn and practice.

I feel proper road strategy might be her biggest risk, since it is easy to ride.

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AZgl1800
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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by AZgl1800 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:34 pm

Put her on a bicycle first, and find out if she understands counter steering!

then take her to a MSN rider course, they will teach her things that will be more acceptable "from the experts" than from your mouth....

something like wives don't listen to a word I say.....

Here is the Law, new riders are required to take a Safety Course:
https://www.ok.gov/okiemoto/Motorcycle_Education/

https://itstillruns.com/beginner-motorc ... 52923.html


https://roadguardians.org/rider-educati ... DLEALw_wcB


https://www.tulsaharley.com/schedule-a- ... rn-to-ride

do what I did, use Google and find what is relevant in your home territory.
~John

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minimac
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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by minimac » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:04 pm

RE:Scooters P.S.
I'm pretty sure the motorcycle safety class is a requirement in Pa. Before that, take the scooter to a large, empty parking lot (such as school) and let her get familiar with feeling the balance, rolling on and off the throttle, start and stopping, mastering the controls, and low speed riding, turning, circles, etc. Then if she wants to continue, take the learn to ride class. Remember, that there is sooooo much that experienced riders do by second nature-good and bad- that it can be overwhelming to convey that all to a new rider. They have enough to concentrate on just learning how to operate and enjoying the ride. Lots of patience will go along way!

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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by harvey01 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:37 pm

I disagree with minimac, take the MSFcourse before doing anything on the motorcycle. Let the instructors teach the correct techniques before anyone has a chance to offer other methods. then follow the instructions from the course. Practice will be a continuing part of the course for years to come.
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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by rachester67 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:43 pm

post links to videos most of them will be oh crap I'm going to fast into this corner freak out and crash, instead of down shift brake with rear brake and counter steer through corner. It really freaks a lot of folks out when your steering so hard in a corner that you start scrapping parts on the pavement.

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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by Scooters » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:40 pm

Here in PA obtaining a permit requires passing a written test only .

A local HD dealer offers training courses, sponsored by DOT. I plan to participate as well.

Most likely I'll start her before a course begins, just because of course scheduling. We are both anxious.

I got her to start watching MCrider training videos today.

I'll post a link ( to crash video) when I find one interesting for discussion.

Scooter is waiting for new petcock.
1985 ... Antique tags maybe???

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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by minimac » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:06 pm

Harvey- You don't want to spend the $$$ for the course if you don't like riding. How do you know, unless you try it first. I would imagine very few people say I'm going to spend $300 or more to take a motorcycle safety class, only to find out they can't balance it or aren't coordinated enough to clutch with one hand, brake with the other hand, shift with one foot , brake with the other foot, look far enough ahead, work the signals, etc,......you get the picture. You have to try it first to see if it's something you want to pursue. Then, by all means, take the rider safety course.

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echinus1988
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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by echinus1988 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:20 am

I guess I'll throw my 2 cents in.

I experienced my first crash in June 2017. I am self taught and friend taught (here's the throttle, brake, etc...) back in the mid 70s, got out for about 20 years and now back in.

Once I could remember most of the crash I was able to analyze more of it. The problem is, I still don't remember all of it or all that I did after it. I suffered a mild concussion, burned knees, couple of scraps on my arms.

The mistake was all on my part, I anticipated the other rider was going to continue and merge but he stopped. We were out for a ride in the mountains, had just come into the town that was our destination and then was making our curve onto the other road. I glanced and saw an SUV turning but I felt still plenty of room for my son who is a much more aggressive rider than me. So I started putting on the throttle again and looked forward only to see him totally stopped. I clipped him knocking him over and the last view of his cam was my bike down and me going over the front.

I guess I got up at that time, went back and started lifting my bike with some help, said I was ok and let's go. I rode another 1/2 to 1 mile when I told my son I didn't feel good and needed to pull over. At this time I had no memory of crashing or the ride to where we stopped. We were pulled over on a side road, I went into my trunk and found a piece of my trim in there. I asked my son what it was. He told me it came off when I crashed. I said ok and put it back in and started going through the trunk again. I asked him two more times what it was without remembering that I had already asked him. At that time, he said he was worried and that we should call an ambulance. He says I argued about that but relented on the third attempt. At this time, I had a very very vague memory of crashing. Needless to say, the ride was over for the day. In fact, my son had to ferry both bikes back to our home. Roughly, 4-5 hours.

If this had happened going straight nothing would have happened since we stagger right and left to avoid this. It happened in a curve where I wasn't quite behind him but not to the side of him. I was accelerating and tried to swerve but just couldn't move enough to avoid him totally. Luckily I only clipped him so he had no injuries. I spent a few hours in the hospital. It took me almost 2 months to get over the effects of the concussion. I couldn't stand up fast, bend over quick or I got vertigo big time. Needless to say, we keep our distance when in a straight line and I NEVER anticipate what he is going to do. I watch him and see what he (or another rider is doing) and respond accordingly. At least I can say I learned something from it. I was wearing a helmet, gloves, jacket, boots and blue jeans. Almost ATGATT.

And I do watch crashes online to see what I can pick up from that. Normally I think the rider contributes by doing something that he/she shouldn't be doing. I watched one the other day doing what I try to do, go through the intersection with a vehicle to your left. The car turning left cut off the car going straight and the motorcycle couldn't stop and hit him. There's always something.

Ride Safe!

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AZgl1800
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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by AZgl1800 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:16 am

echinus1988

Thanks for your post, we all need to review these incidents and see if we can improve our future riding skills.

As I have posted, an 18 wheeler tried to kill me, how I survived is not known, but I was truly ATGATT all the way.... but, somehow, my helmet came off.

In retrospect, I believe that I know how that happened...

Two things were wrong:

1) the helmet did not fit properly, it kept wanting to fall down forward so that I would have trouble seeing. So, to keep the helmet properly positioned, I got in the habit of place the chin strap on the front of my chin.... yep, between the jaw bone and my lips.

2) I have a habit of forgetting to pull the modular helmet down when I first get on. I am busy getting my gloves on, that is the last thing I do. Helmet first, jacket 2nd, gloves last. 1, 2, 3.... every time. I have not changed that routine in 20 years.

So, I really think that only being 3 miles from where I left work heading for home, that because I was in the hot climate of Phoenix, AZ and would leave the modular face piece raised to the top. This was not a problem because that bike had a Tulsa Tall windscreen so high it would touch the top of my helmet if I leaned forward at all.... ( no more Tulsa Tall w/s for me )

Add that the strap was on my chin, and the modular face piece was raised up....
My supposition is that something clipped the top of the helmet and ripped it right off my head.

There are scars on my face and above my left eye. Above the left eye all of the skin and layers of skin were scraped completely off down to the bone... an area roughly 2 inches high by 3 inches wide....
it took six months for that to almost completely fill in with new skin. 2 more years for it to not be sensitive to touch, and 10 years for the pink color to go away.

Look close in this picture, the helmet is next to the median wall, almost up to where the truck is. Sitting right side up. I suspicion someone picked it up and sat it that way.

.
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echinus1988
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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by echinus1988 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:39 am

I think that is part of the reason I had a concussion. The helmet fit looser than my new one. It may have allowed my head to shift inside and hit multiple times. I don't know this for a fact and never will. I was much more careful sizing on my new helmet and it doesn't shift like the old one did. I plan on never finding out but you just don't know.

Riding back from a small campground in Southern Colorado I had a Mercedes Benz decide that he could pass two cars and a semi before I got to the lead vehicle. I was telling my son to hit the brakes and get to the right. I was hitting my brakes and moving to the right along with the trailer. The idiot and I passed just as he was starting to pull back over to the correct lane. I was tucked over tight and still slowing. What a moron!

Always keep an eye out. Try not to ride over your abilities. Trust some in Lady Luck. And watch out for the idiots!

Ride safe my friend!

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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by Rednaxs60 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:13 am

The advanced course I like to take has a session on wearing of helmets. They have an old full face helmet sectioned off with percentages of when a particular might hit ground first. The area in the front of the helmet has the greatest percentage because we will look where we are going to land. They also have new full face helmets on site to use because they frown on helmets over 5 years old, makes a point, but at least they provide a helmet for the course - all about safety and liability for them. They also let people use the helmets to try a full face for the two day course - gives another perspective to the rider.

Agree with taking a course. Just like trying to give some help with golf swings, having an unbiased instructor that looks at more than just the swing, foot placement, body orientation and such, never really works. Same on a motorcycle. Foot/knee placement, are you turning your head to look where you are going but looking down too far as well (I do this - great for turning quick but then you have to raise your head to look where the next turn is, maybe not much but still has to be done), hand grip and all sorts of other things. Also impossible to self-teach good habits because you cannot critique yourself - can't be in two places at once. Even if you have yourself videoed, may look good, but an experienced eye is always good. Not an instructor but do know that I need an unbiased eye every now and then. I also think the money spent on a course is better spent than that on insurance (insurance is mandatory) - just MHO.

Scooter course should be mandatory - less than 50 cc. Lots on the road and road rash from a scooter or a larger motorcycle is the same. Don't necessarily want them to have a special licence endorsement - only need a car licence - but the person on the scooter needs more than a 5 minute intro before leaving the shop parking lot.

Just a few thoughts. Cheers
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by harvey01 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:44 am

AZgl1800, it is really none of my business but is that a 3/4 helmet, modular helmet of a full face helmet you were wearing?
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AZgl1800
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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by AZgl1800 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:30 pm

harvey01 wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:44 am
AZgl1800, it is really none of my business but is that a 3/4 helmet, modular helmet of a full face helmet you were wearing?
That one in the crash was a HJC Full Face Modular helmet.
I still have it, bought a new face shield for it 2 years ago. It is still a good helmet...

When it is locked down, it stays locked no matter how hard you try to open it.

I currently have a Shoei NeoTec Full Face Modular...
It is much tighter to my face than the HJC, much more comfortable, and when locked, the wind noise almost totally goes away.

It has air vents in the top and back, I really can't tell the difference open/closed but I put that to the fact that I currently have a +4 windshield and don't get any wind on me at all unless the vent is open.

The current Optic Armor +4 is going to be replaced with a Madstad windshield which I have in the garage, just waiting on warm weather.


That 5 year rule?
I think that is pure Balderdash crap, nothing wrong with my HJC and it is 20 years old.
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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by harvey01 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:30 pm

Thank you for responding, glad you are okay and now have a better fitting helmet.
harvey
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echinus1988
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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by echinus1988 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:30 pm

I always watch those. Analyze them. Try to figure out how to avoid a crash.

Most interesting one I have seen is from a video of something I do all the time.

Going through an intersection, I will try and position a car to my left. That way, my thinking was I have less chance of a left turn in front of me.

That was until I saw the video where the motorcyclist was just behind and to the right of a car going through the intersection. A car cut in front of the car to his left and went in front of him. No time to stop, he crashed into it.

I'm much more cautious now! Not as confident in that working anymore. So I watch intersections much closer now.

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AZgl1800
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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by AZgl1800 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:43 pm

echinus1988 wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:30 pm
I always watch those. Analyze them. Try to figure out how to avoid a crash.

Most interesting one I have seen is from a video of something I do all the time.

Going through an intersection, I will try and position a car to my left. That way, my thinking was I have less chance of a left turn in front of me.

That was until I saw the video where the motorcyclist was just behind and to the right of a car going through the intersection. A car cut in front of the car to his left and went in front of him. No time to stop, he crashed into it.

I'm much more cautious now! Not as confident in that working anymore. So I watch intersections much closer now.
Intersection are my panacea...
I assume that there is a hidden bullet flying right/left across my path, and until I can verify with my eyes, that I can see more than 10 seconds worth of vehicle travel is open, I won't move.

I do the same thing in my car, not just my bike. I make a practice of picking out a solid structure, sign post, something, and when traffic passes it by, I count "One Thousand One, One Thousand Two........... up to as long as it takes....

7 seconds is my absolute minimum for pulling out into a street with cross traffic, 10 seconds is much safer.
Try it, I can have 10 seconds from the school's Speed Zone sign to my home intersection where my county road intersects with US-169 which is a 45 mph speed limit: that means the cars are traveling at 55 mph.

I pull out onto US-169 and stay in the left/center lane and before I can get up to 35 mph they zoom past me.... pissed because I got in their way.

Our community has been begging for a Traffic LIght here. only an 1/8th of a mile from a School Zone, at school traffic times, it is nearly impossible to get across the street. At those times, I have taken to zooming straight across and go around to the next the block and turn left and another block and back left to make a right onto US-169... far safer.
~John

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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by Stew » Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:02 am

AZgl1800 wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:30 pm
That 5 year rule? I think that is pure Balderdash crap, nothing wrong with my HJC and it is 20 years old.
My HJC is not quite as old, closer to 14 or 15 years, but I'm with you. In my mind something doesn't pass the logic test about a helmet needing to be replaced purely because of it's age. I stopped in a local motorcycle dealer a few weeks ago looking for a tinted visor for my helmet and we ended up talking about this briefly when I showed it to him, he said it's not the outer shell but the inner EPS (Styrofoam) that breaks down. But wait, this is the same stuff disposable coffee cups are made out of that will be in landfills for 100,000 years right? Plus, the inner Styrofoam shell does not get any UV exposure! That argument does not sound believable.
Winging it every chance I get 8-)

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SlowTyper
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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by SlowTyper » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:05 am

Stew wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:02 am
AZgl1800 wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:30 pm
That 5 year rule? I think that is pure Balderdash crap, nothing wrong with my HJC and it is 20 years old.
My HJC is not quite as old, closer to 14 or 15 years, but I'm with you...
What rock are you guys living under?!

Not only do you need a new helmet every 5 years, but also a new bike every 3 years, a new car every year, new appliances every 8 years, new furniture every 7 years, a new house every 5 years, a new job every 6 years, and a new spouse every 3 years. Like..being content like.. with what you have like.. is not so like cool!

PS. Don't look at the year of my bike, or research that I have been married 40+ years. <grin>

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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by dakotanator » Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:22 pm

#1 rule...........only ride to the best of YOUR ability. Don't try to "keep up" with someone else. You're just asking for karma to kick you in the @ss.
If you ride with others, you'll get a feel for each other's "riding style". Don't feel you have to try to impress anyone with your "mad skills bro".

Those types of riders will NEED YOU. How...? They'll NEED YOU to be the one to call 911 for THEM.
It's not WHAT you ride......it's THAT you ride.

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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by tamathumper » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:34 am

I had heard the "refresh every X years" mantra a long time ago, but I listened to a podcast last week that was a two-part interview with the Director of the Snell research institute. He was talking about all the tests they do, the facts that they keep a sample helmet for every one they test, that they destroy the tested units with a log splitter, and that they put helmets on the roof of a building in the hot sun for years and years and then randomly would go and test one after X number of years and never saw a measurable drop in performance from exposure to the elements. The only thing they warned against was exposure to gasoline or similar solvents, which could invisibly compromise the foam protective layer(s).

Working in a company that makes UV protectants, I'm surprised by that, but I'm also one to believe the data.
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Re: Why did he crash ?

Post by WingAdmin » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:35 pm

tamathumper wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:34 am
I had heard the "refresh every X years" mantra a long time ago, but I listened to a podcast last week that was a two-part interview with the Director of the Snell research institute. He was talking about all the tests they do, the facts that they keep a sample helmet for every one they test, that they destroy the tested units with a log splitter, and that they put helmets on the roof of a building in the hot sun for years and years and then randomly would go and test one after X number of years and never saw a measurable drop in performance from exposure to the elements. The only thing they warned against was exposure to gasoline or similar solvents, which could invisibly compromise the foam protective layer(s).

Working in a company that makes UV protectants, I'm surprised by that, but I'm also one to believe the data.
From what I have read, it's not the shell that is compromised over time, it's the EPS layer inside. The more it's worn, and the more air/sweat/heat/chemicals/gasoline it's exposed to, the less shock absorbing qualities it has.



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