Ethanol! Yes or No?


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suvcw04
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Re: Ethanol! Yes or No?

Post by suvcw04 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:13 pm



branson0319@att.net wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:48 pm
I have been using 87 octane with 10% ethanol for years in my 1500 and now my 1800 have never seen the difference in the way the bike operates using 91 octane VS 87 octane gas mileage the same and runs as strong in my mind .. Do use a stabilizer in the winter when the bike is stored.. .. Guess it is more preference than anything else
Alcohol has fewer btu's than pure gasoline. To get the same gas mileage would mean the laws of physics that govern the know universe would have to be altered. You may not NOTICE the difference, but both Einstein and Hawking would assure you that it is there.


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Re: Ethanol! Yes or No?

Post by AZgl1800 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:25 pm

my '02 gets a bit better mpg on pure gas than it does on E-10,

but, the slight increase does not come close to warrant the extra cost of pure gas...

around here, it is typically 35 to 50 cents/gallon more than E-10
~John

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Re: Ethanol! Yes or No?

Post by landisr » Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:10 pm

Sorry if this is a repeat, but remember... the reason ethanol is cheaper is because it is Government Subsidized. So every time someone tops off with E-anything, that is money out of YOUR (and my) pocket. I cringe when I see someone grab the yellow E85 pump nozzle.

Ron
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Re: Ethanol! Yes or No?

Post by suvcw04 » Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:40 pm

landisr wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:10 pm
Sorry if this is a repeat, but remember... the reason ethanol is cheaper is because it is Government Subsidized. So every time someone tops off with E-anything, that is money out of YOUR (and my) pocket. I cringe when I see someone grab the yellow E85 pump nozzle.

Ron
RIGHT. And . . . what you "save" at the pump costs you at the grocery store. Check the ingredients on the food in your home right now. Over half of it will list corn or corn sugar (dextrose) as an ingredient. The cost of which is inflated by using FOOD (corn) to power your cars and bikes.
Some economists claim it costs more to produce a gallon of alky than what it should sell for, hence, the government (tax money) subsidies. It also takes MANY GALLONS of water to produce a gallon of alky, and creates more air pollution. Gasahol is NOT a good deal for your pocket or for your lungs.
Ask any motorcycle manufacturer what they think about 15 % fuel. They will disallow fuel related warranty claims if you use 15% alky fuel. 15% is bad, but 10% is good? Kind of like being a little bit pregnant.
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Don't drive intexticated.

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Re: Ethanol! Yes or No?

Post by FM-USA » Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:00 pm

The UMTEEN-MILLIONS who have complained about ALL the many detriments of E-Fuel means nothing, yet a small hand full of protesters will bring down history (eg; statues).

Basically ethKRAPanol is a collusion of several entities, and NONE of those entities share the windfall wealth. That windfall should be going towards the Nations Deficit.
EH, but then, I'm talking common sense.
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Re: Ethanol! Yes or No?

Post by Swagonmaster » Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:24 pm

Since this thread has been resurrected I will point out that puregas.org can help you find fuel with no alcohol.

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Re: Ethanol! Yes or No?

Post by Bluewaterhooker0 » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:31 pm

I've been using non-ethanol gas for about 4 years in my 1997 GL1500. My reasoning was simply an aversion to putting alcohol in a 1997 vehicle, given it's corrosive, hygroscopic, and solvent nature. I run blended when I have to due to availability problems, but I'd say 95% of my fuel is alcohol free. I don't like paying the additional cost, but there is certainly an MPG return on the investment. Recently, I started putting it in my Mustang and Expedition, just for observation purposes. I noticed, in particular, the Expedition seemed to benefit by about 2 mpg increase in mileage. That's 10 mpg to 12 mpg average. There is nothing scientific or exactly measurable about my observations, because variations in climate, gas supplies, and driving variations per tank of fuel (trip lengths/aggressiveness on the throttle) all play a part in fuel economy. And, a 20% increase would seem to fly in the face of science and BTU's. BUT, given my observations, I am going to continue using the non-ethanol fuel in all vehicles, even with the added cost, as the per mile cost of fuel when figured out, is simply no different than using the cheaper stuff. $2.50/gallon E10 = $.25 per mile @ 10mpg. $3.00/gallon non-ethanol = $.25 per mile @ 12mpg. AND, I'm certain the engines will be happier burning what they were designed to burn, as well as all the rubber hoses, seals, and metal parts exposed to the fuel. The economy of using non-ethanol hold true across all vehicles.

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Re: Ethanol! Yes or No?

Post by Solina Dave » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:39 pm

I just saw this article regarding how the govenment of Ontario is going to save me from myself, whether I like it or not, by raising the minimum allowable ethanol content in gasoline, to 10%. That will be the highest minimum for any province in Canada. Kind of makes me proud! :lol:
It mentions that there is a federal mandate, regarding a minimum allowable ethanol content of 5%, in gasoline sold across Canada. Apparently some provinces set their own higher levels, but 5% is the minimum allowed by the government of Canada. That statement would seem to include all octane levels. However, I see pumps at a great number of stations (Shell, ESSO, Ultramar, and others) that label their premium gasoline pumps as having zero ethanol content. That's what I use all the time. The article doesn't mention premium gasoline, so hopefully it will remain ethanol free. But who knows?

I thought you might like to read this article.......................Dave https://www.theweathernetwork.com/news/ ... 020/90322/
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Solina Dave
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Re: Ethanol! Yes or No?

Post by Solina Dave » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:31 pm

Just looking for a little bit of clarification regarding the provincial proposal to raise the minimum ethanol requirement by 2020, as posted above. I sent an email question to Chris Ballard, the Ontario Minister of the Environment and Climate Change. I've quoted the question, and the reply below. I'm not certain if I'm any further informed or not. It seems kind of ambiguous. I know that's hard to believe. But it's something to ponderanyway.
One word that caught my eye in the reply was "voluntarily." I would have thought, that with all of the other rules, labeling would be mandatory. But what do I know? I ride a motorcycle! :lol:

"Dear Mr. Ballard,
I just finished reading an article by Scott Sutherland, a Meteorologist/Science Writer, regarding plans by the government of Ontario to increase the ethanol level, to a minimum of 10%, in gasoline sold in Ontario.
Currently, it's my belief that regular and middle grade octanes are using 5% to 10% ethanol. However, I purchase premium gasoline at several stations in Ontario, that has a zero ethanol content. Shell is the one that I use the most often, and it's premium pumps are clearly labeled as having zero ethanol. I hope that is definitely the case, as my vintage motorcycle has a necessity for ethanol free gasoline.
I guess my question is; will I still be able to purchase ethanol free gasoline for my motorcycle now, and in the foreseeable future.
Thank you......................Dave"

Dear Dave:
Thank you for your email of December 5, 2017 to Minister Ballard about ethanol content in gasoline. I am pleased to respond on behalf of the Ministry of the Environment and Climate Change.
With the introduction of Ontario’s Ethanol in Gasoline Regulation (O. Reg. 535/05), which took effect on January 1, 2007, retailers have continued the industry-accepted practice of voluntarily labeling those pumps that may dispense ethanol-blended gasoline.
The Ethanol in Gasoline Regulation requires that fuel suppliers blend an average of five per cent ethanol in their gasoline on an annual basis; however, it does not require that every litre or grade sold contain ethanol. Accordingly, fuel suppliers can provide ethanol-free gasoline and still meet the regulation's requirements.
While most fuel suppliers sell ethanol-free gasoline in their premium grades, some do not. Accordingly, it is recommended that you check with your fuel supplier or retail station for confirmation.

I trust this information is helpful.
Sincerely,
Jeff Arp
Supervisor
Corporate Correspondence Unit
Ministry of the Environment and Climate Change
Last edited by Solina Dave on Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ethanol! Yes or No?

Post by AZgl1800 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:06 pm

That is no different that what we have here is the states right now.

At the same pump, we can have E-0 87, 89, 91 and E-10 87.
There is a pump just like that, only 3 miles from my house at Oologah Dam quick stop, a little Conoco station.... he is the only one around that offers all 3 grades of E-0 and also E-10


you must look at each pump very closely, or you just might get the wrong stuff.

We have quite a few stations scattered around that sell only E-0,
We have several QT brand stations that have two E-0 pumps and about 20 of the E-10 pumps.

I use an Android app call Pure-Gas which lets me easily find my next fuel stop.
A little replanning ahead, can make your trip a lot less stressful.
I also carry a 1 gallon Jerry can with me with E-0 in it.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... an.puregas

This might be available in the citrus OS store, I have no idea.
~John

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Re: Ethanol! Yes or No?

Post by Solina Dave » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:43 pm

I imagine that everyone is sick of me going on about this subject. But I don't think it's much wonder that I'm confused. I will admit that I have a tendancy to possibly overdo it when I try to make a point. It's very difficult to get straight answers from someone who couldn't care less.
I made the following inquiries with Mobil customer service. The identical replies, from two different "customer care specialists", are underlined. I really think that I'm on my own again!

I have a vintage motorcycle and I've opted to use 100% non-ethanol fuel. On occasion I may need fuel in an area that doesn't have non-ethanol fuel. In that case, I may need to use what I can get. Today my only chance for a non-ethanol fillup was at a MOBIL station in Haliburton, Ontario. The attendant told me that he couldn't guarantee anything, but that maybe the 93 octane fuel would be my best bet. I used 91 octane in this case. Many stations that I go to, guarantee no ethanol in their 91 octane fuel, and that's what I use. Could you tell me if this particular station carries non-ethanol fuel? And if so, which octane level. This is a 4 octane station 87,89,91,93.
I was once told by Petro-Can that at one of their 3 octane stations, 87,89,91, that the 91 octane was ethanol free. But at a 4 octane station 87,89,91,93, all fuels sold had some level of ethanol. I wondered if MOBIL stations, as I used today, adhered to the same protocol with their 4 octane stations. Comments would be appreciated. Thank you.............Dave

Synergy-branded gasoline does contain ethanol, as do the far majority of all gasoline (regular, midgrade & premium) in Canada. Here are the ethanol percentages found in the fuel sold at our branded retail service stations:
• Regular unleaded gasoline (Octane 87) at selected locations contains 10% ethanol (ERUL or E10)
• Midgrade gasoline (Octane 89) at locations with E10 contains 5% ethanol (midgrade is a blend of regular and premium gasoline)
• Premium unleaded gasoline (Octane 91) does not contain ethanol
• Supreme + gasoline (Octane 93 is only available at certain locations) contains 10% ethanol
• Diesel gasoline does not contain ethanol
All pumps at our branded retail service stations have a sticker that clearly states "May contain up to 10% ethanol"; however, the below provinces/territories do not have ethanol:
• New Brunswick
• Newfoundland
• Northwest Territories
• Nova Scotia
• Prince Edward Island
• Yukon
We hope this information has been helpful. Thank you for allowing us the opportunity to assist you.
Sincerely,
April
Consumer Care Specialist


Thank you very much April for providing me with that information. It's just what I needed, although I'm still somewhat confused about one thing .
You're saying that the Premium unleaded (91 octane) fuel does not contain ethanol. At a station with only 3 octane levels (87/89/91), the fact that 91 octane fuel does not contain ethanol, would be quite straight forward. However, does that also apply at a 4 octane level station (87/89/91/93)? You're saying that the Supreme+ (93 octane) fuel, at this station, has 10% ethanol. At this 4 octane station, is the 91 octane fuel also ethanol free, as it isat a 3 octane station?

I got no reply, so I sent the question again, as follows.
I received an answer to a question, from your customer service, regarding ethanol content in the gasoline at one of your stations. The information I received didn't go quite far enough.
I was told that fuel with an octane level of 91 was ethanol free. And that also, fuel with an octane level of 93 did contain ethanol.
My question is this. Is fuel with an octane level of 91 ethanol free, even at a station with 93 octane fuel available? Or, put another way, at a 4 octane station (87/89/91/93). Or is the 91 octane fuel at a 3 octane level station (87/89/91), the only ethanol free fuel that you provide?
Just for your information, Petro-Canada told me, some time ago, that at their 3 octane (87/89/91) stations, the 91 octane fuel contains no ethanol. But at a 4 octane station (87/89/91/93), all fuels contain ethanol. That sounded strange to me. However on a follow-up inquiry, they did confirm that there is ethanol content in all fuels at 4 octane stations. I'd like to know if that's also the case with Mobil/Esso.
If you would confirm the information regarding your fuels specifically, It would be appreciated.

Thank you...............Dave

Synergy-branded gasoline does contain ethanol, as do the far majority of all gasoline (regular, midgrade & premium) in Canada. Here are the ethanol percentages found in the fuel sold at our branded retail service stations:
• Regular unleaded gasoline (Octane 87) at selected locations contains 10% ethanol (ERUL or E10)
• Midgrade gasoline (Octane 89) at locations with E10 contains 5% ethanol (midgrade is a blend of regular and premium gasoline)
• Premium unleaded gasoline (Octane 91) does not contain ethanol
• Supreme + gasoline (Octane 93 is only available at certain locations) contains 10% ethanol
• Diesel gasoline does not contain ethanol
All pumps at our branded retail service stations have a sticker that clearly states "May contain up to 10% ethanol"; however, the below provinces/territories do not have ethanol:
• New Brunswick
• Newfoundland
• Northwest Territories
• Nova Scotia
• Prince Edward Island
• Yukon
We hope this information has been helpful. Thank you for allowing us the opportunity to assist you.
Sincerely,
Keirstin
Consumer Care Specialist



Am I wrong? :? ..........................Dave
"Assume Nothing"

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Re: Ethanol! Yes or No?

Post by redial » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:10 pm

Whichever way you look at it, you are never going to be right!
Len in Kapunda

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Re: Ethanol! Yes or No?

Post by AZgl1800 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:52 pm

at our local convenience store,

a new owner took over recently and he decided to put 91 non-ethanol fuel in the 91 octane tank.

As the pumps only have one (1) hose, I questioned him as to how much fuel is in the hose between the nozzle and the valves that switch to 87, 89 and 91.

He was real honest " I don't know, but the valves are down below the pump housing, so at least 10 or 12 feet of pipe and hose...."

so, if I fill up my bike and only need 4 gallons of 91 pure gas, the 1st gallon going in will be E10 ethanol ( that is my opinion of the quantity involved here )

My Suburban has a 32 gallon tank, and I quite often need 27-29 gallons of E-0 when I fill it up.
so in this case, the E-10 is a ratio 1 to 28, not bad... won't even be noticed.

but, for my little Piaggio MP3 which has a 3.2 gallon tank, and typically will only take 1.8 - 2.0 gallons when I top it off again, I would pump in 1 gallon of E-10 and 1 gallon of E-0...

I won't be using his 91 pumps for the little scooter, it will be filled from my plastic Jerry cans which I fill at the Feed Store which dispenses ONLY 87 Pure Gas... 1 hose, and only 1 button, marked 87.

the question of how much ethanol is too much for our bikes is speculative at best...
lucky me now owns an 1800 which is Fuel Injected and doesn't care, E-0 or E-10 gives almost the same MPG.
~John

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Re: Ethanol! Yes or No?

Post by dakotanator » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:45 pm

dingdong wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:43 am
I run fuel with corn simply because it is less expensive and I don't see any difference between the with or without varieties. Can't feel any loss of power nor do I get any noticeable difference in fuel mileage. I do use Stabil in winter however.
I have an '83 Aspencade, and I don't notice any POWER difference between ethanol/non-ethanol......HOWEVER, I DEFINITELY notice a difference in mileage.
I got about 30-32 mpg WITH ethanol.......40-42 WITHOUT ethanol. This summer, while restoring the bike, I sent my carbs to Pistol Pete in Kentucky. BEST THING I ever did for the bike. (I'm and okay fixer, but carbs aren't my specialty........yet). Anyway.......that's just my experience with the "stuff".
It's not WHAT you ride......it's THAT you ride.

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Re: Ethanol! Yes or No?

Post by dakotanator » Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:08 pm

Solina Dave wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2015 5:51 pm
I have a '78 GL1000 with very high mileage. I take very good care of this motorcycle, and when I put it into hibernation at the beginning of this totally useless winter, it had been running nearly as well as it ever had. I have always used regular (87 octane) fuel, and never paid any attention to whether or not it contained ethanol. I see that regular fuel has a 10% ethanol level, and apparently it's better for the environment. How much better is possibly up for debate, but that's not my primary concern in this instance. My motorcycles health is my primary concern. Sorry if I offend!
Is there an advantage, or disadvantage in using fuel that contains ethanol? Should I use it, or not use it, if it contains ethanol? Should I hunt for, and make a point of using, ethanol free fuel, and why would I do that?

Riding is a gas!.........................Dave
Howdy Dave......down here in the states we still have Non-Ethanol fuel.......not sure about up there. I will NEVER use ethanol fuel in my '83 Aspencade. Older engines shouldn't have a problem with it.....but I've heard many say the older bikes just don't like it, and neither do the fuel lines. I guess you should upgrade your fuel lines if you choose to use ethanol-added fuel, as I've read that the older fuel lines can start to dissolve from the inside out. Anyway......NO to the use of ethanol in my opinion.
It's not WHAT you ride......it's THAT you ride.

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Re: Ethanol! Yes or No?

Post by suvcw04 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:35 pm

Solina Dave, ethanol is NOT, NOT, NOT good for the environment. It actually pollutes the air more than straight gasoline.
Ethanol only exists because of the farm lobby. It uses MASSIVE amounts of water, as does the growing of the corn, and actually uses more energy to produce than it creates.
I would welcome any reliable refutation of any of these statements. By scientists, not hacks.
Alcohol should ONLY be mixed with cola, 7-Up or water.
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Re: Ethanol! Yes or No?

Post by Solina Dave » Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:55 pm

dakotanator wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:08 pm
Solina Dave wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2015 5:51 pm
I have a '78 GL1000 with very high mileage. I take very good care of this motorcycle. My motorcycles health is my primary concern.
Is there an advantage, or disadvantage in using fuel that contains ethanol? Should I use it, or not use it, if it contains ethanol? Should I hunt for, and make a point of using, ethanol free fuel, and why would I do that?

Riding is a gas!.........................Dave
Howdy Dave......down here in the states we still have Non-Ethanol fuel.......not sure about up there. I will NEVER use ethanol fuel in my '83 Aspencade. Older engines shouldn't have a problem with it.....but I've heard many say the older bikes just don't like it, and neither do the fuel lines. I guess you should upgrade your fuel lines if you choose to use ethanol-added fuel, as I've read that the older fuel lines can start to dissolve from the inside out. Anyway......NO to the use of ethanol in my opinion.
I agree Dakota, better safe than sorry. As you can see, my OP was just over 4 years ago. Since then, after a lot of information gathering I decided to use non-ethanol fuel exclusively.
I think the most critical factor, with the older engines, especially engines with original factory components, is seals and other related items in the carburation system, and like you say, fuel lines. I serviced the carbs, and upgraded to ethanol resistant components, but I've still opted for the use of non-ethanol fuel. It's widely available up here in the Great White North, but almost exclusively with high-test fuel. I don't like it, but I can tolerate the increase in fuel cost. The only time I'll use fuel with ethanol is if I get caught low on fuel while out in the boonies, but that's very rare. I also believe there's a reduced risk of rusted fuel tanks with the use of non-ethanol fuel.

Spring is almost here. Time to rouse the beast. Ride safe................................Dave
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Re: Ethanol! Yes or No?

Post by Ob1quixote » Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:01 pm

Burn gasoline.
Drink corn.
Eat corn when properly prepared.

Pump 0% ethanol from pumps with a separate hose where possible.

Burn 10% ethanol when you have to, but refill with 0% when you can.

I measured an 11% increase in mileage in direct comparison of fuels on the same trip with the same load at the same speeds with my pickup.
At least at the start of any road trip I burn 0%, if only to get that much further on the first tank.


**** the corn lobby and the farce they have inflicted on us.



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