Starter wont turn the engine over


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02z06dave
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Starter wont turn the engine over

Post by 02z06dave » Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:12 pm



Hi all,
I am new on this site as I have just picked up my first goldwing, an 83 gl1100. I'm generally more into the older honda twins and in line 4s, but I got this bike for next to nothing, so I thought I'd see if I could get it back on the road.

The issue I'm having is when I press the start button, I get a click from the solenoid and buzz from the starter motor, but it doesn't turn the engine. I put the engine in gear and pulled the spark plugs and was able to turn the engine over by turning the back wheel, so I know the engine isn't locked up.

Next, I thought maybe the starter motor was bad, so I pulled it and rebuilt it using the instructions on here. I bench tested it after and it's working fine. I reinstalled it and it still won't turn the engine.

I thought maybe it was the solenoid, so I hooked the positive from my starter box direct to the post on the starter motor and it buzzed but didn't spin. I then bought another used but working starter on ebay and swapped it in, and still the same problem.

I'm stuck at this point as I'm not sure what the problem could be. I fear it could be something requiring the engine to be pulled, which I don't want to do.

I am wide open to any suggestions or help anyone can offer.
Thanks,
Dave



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Wilcoy02
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Re: Starter wont turn the engine over

Post by Wilcoy02 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:52 pm

Welcome to the forum


How old is the battery?
Have you tried jump starting it off a good battery?

02z06dave
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Re: Starter wont turn the engine over

Post by 02z06dave » Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:54 pm

Wilcoy02 wrote:Welcome to the forum


How old is the battery?
Have you tried jump starting it off a good battery?
There is no battery, I'm using a starter box.

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Re: Starter wont turn the engine over

Post by Aussie81Interstate » Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:02 pm

You need really clean connections, and a fully charged battery to start the bike.

How easy was the bike to turn over by the rear wheel..

I would recommend a bit of oil down the spark plug holes - leave the spark plugs out - set the off/run/off switch to off and then crank it... it should spin freely - if it is still tight - then you could have rust in the bores?

let us know the results

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Re: Starter wont turn the engine over

Post by 02z06dave » Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:36 pm

Aussie81Interstate wrote:You need really clean connections, and a fully charged battery to start the bike.

How easy was the bike to turn over by the rear wheel..

I would recommend a bit of oil down the spark plug holes - leave the spark plugs out - set the off/run/off switch to off and then crank it... it should spin freely - if it is still tight - then you could have rust in the bores?

let us know the results
I cleaned the connections already, forgot to mention that. The battery charger/starter box I have has been used to start all kinds of bikes from small singles to big 6 cylinders as well as cars and trucks. It should be more than sufficient to start this bike. The engine turned pretty easily with the wheel and the transmission in 5th gear.

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Re: Starter wont turn the engine over

Post by Johnyy Smoke » Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:44 pm

Have you checked the main ground to the frame? Regards, Johnny

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Re: Starter wont turn the engine over

Post by RBGERSON » Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:37 am

BY buzzed do you mean spinning? If so you starter clutch may be stuck..gummed up and not engaging..if so you'll have to clean it several threads on how to it from oil additives to pulling the engine and rear cover to take it apart to clean..
HAD LOTS OF GOLDWING 75-83
NOW INTO 1500'S..RIDING A 1998 SE

FAIR WINDS,
RB

02z06dave
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Re: Starter wont turn the engine over

Post by 02z06dave » Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:49 am

RBGERSON wrote:BY buzzed do you mean spinning? If so you starter clutch may be stuck..gummed up and not engaging..if so you'll have to clean it several threads on how to it from oil additives to pulling the engine and rear cover to take it apart to clean..
No, it's not spinning. It sounds like it's trying to spin, but can't because of some resistance.

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Re: Starter wont turn the engine over

Post by Maz » Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:19 pm

Check the main ground and make sure the motor (engine) is properly grounded. As a further test connect the + of your starter box to the terminal on the starter motor and the - of your starter box to the starter motor body.
Maz
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Re: Starter wont turn the engine over

Post by WingAdmin » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:43 am

Very unlikely a "starter box" will be able to provide the HUNDREDS of amps required to crank your engine over. Try connecting an actual battery to the bike, one that is known to be in good condition and fully charged, before chasing after other things that may actually be working just fine.

02z06dave
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Re: Starter wont turn the engine over

Post by 02z06dave » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:51 am

WingAdmin wrote:Very unlikely a "starter box" will be able to provide the HUNDREDS of amps required to crank your engine over. Try connecting an actual battery to the bike, one that is known to be in good condition and fully charged, before chasing after other things that may actually be working just fine.
There box has 200 cranking amps and it's turned over much bigger engines than this one. Either way, I purchased a brand new battery for it and charged it fully and cleaned all of the electrical connections. When I press the start button, I get a click from the solenoid and a buzz from the starter. It sounds like an electric motor that's trying to turn but can't. I've heard the sound from trying the starter on a locked up engine before. I have again turned the engine over by turning the wheel with it in gear and I can hear and feel the engine turning. It is definitely not locked up. When I hook up the + from the battery to the post on the starter, and the - from the battery to the body of the starter, I hear the same buzzing and the motor started to smoke. It seems there is something keeping the starter from turning. Any ideas on what that could be?
Thanks everyone for all of the suggestions.

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Re: Starter wont turn the engine over

Post by WingAdmin » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:06 am

02z06dave wrote:
WingAdmin wrote:Very unlikely a "starter box" will be able to provide the HUNDREDS of amps required to crank your engine over. Try connecting an actual battery to the bike, one that is known to be in good condition and fully charged, before chasing after other things that may actually be working just fine.
There box has 200 cranking amps and it's turned over much bigger engines than this one. Either way, I purchased a brand new battery for it and charged it fully and cleaned all of the electrical connections. When I press the start button, I get a click from the solenoid and a buzz from the starter. It sounds like an electric motor that's trying to turn but can't. I've heard the sound from trying the starter on a locked up engine before. I have again turned the engine over by turning the wheel with it in gear and I can hear and feel the engine turning. It is definitely not locked up. When I hook up the + from the battery to the post on the starter, and the - from the battery to the body of the starter, I hear the same buzzing and the motor started to smoke. It seems there is something keeping the starter from turning. Any ideas on what that could be?
Thanks everyone for all of the suggestions.
The amount of power that is used to turn the engine is measured in watts. To get the watts used to crank the engine, you multiply the volts by the amps. If you have a 12.8 volt battery and you are drawing 200 amps from that battery, you are using 2,560 watts of energy.

If you have resistance somewhere along the way between the battery and the starter, it will reduce the voltage available at the starter - which will reduce the energy. Let's say we have resistance such that only 9 volts is getting to the starter. That same 200 amp draw means that only 1,800 watts is available to the starter - which is not enough to crank the engine, but it is sure enough to smoke the starter!

This resistance could be in a cable (i.e. battery cable), or a junction or terminal - but you've eliminated this by applying power directly to the starter itself. So either you have resistance inside the starter itself, or the starter (or other part of the starter) is mechanically prevented from turning.

Most often the problem is with old, worn brushes that are not making sufficient contact, or a build-up of carbon that allows a partial short inside the starter. Either one is going to require an overhaul of the starter itself. I would have a look at this: viewtopic.php?t=259

02z06dave
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Re: Starter wont turn the engine over

Post by 02z06dave » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:14 am

WingAdmin wrote:
02z06dave wrote:
WingAdmin wrote:Very unlikely a "starter box" will be able to provide the HUNDREDS of amps required to crank your engine over. Try connecting an actual battery to the bike, one that is known to be in good condition and fully charged, before chasing after other things that may actually be working just fine.
There box has 200 cranking amps and it's turned over much bigger engines than this one. Either way, I purchased a brand new battery for it and charged it fully and cleaned all of the electrical connections. When I press the start button, I get a click from the solenoid and a buzz from the starter. It sounds like an electric motor that's trying to turn but can't. I've heard the sound from trying the starter on a locked up engine before. I have again turned the engine over by turning the wheel with it in gear and I can hear and feel the engine turning. It is definitely not locked up. When I hook up the + from the battery to the post on the starter, and the - from the battery to the body of the starter, I hear the same buzzing and the motor started to smoke. It seems there is something keeping the starter from turning. Any ideas on what that could be?
Thanks everyone for all of the suggestions.
The amount of power that is used to turn the engine is measured in watts. To get the watts used to crank the engine, you multiply the volts by the amps. If you have a 12.8 volt battery and you are drawing 200 amps from that battery, you are using 2,560 watts of energy.

If you have resistance somewhere along the way between the battery and the starter, it will reduce the voltage available at the starter - which will reduce the energy. Let's say we have resistance such that only 9 volts is getting to the starter. That same 200 amp draw means that only 1,800 watts is available to the starter - which is not enough to crank the engine, but it is sure enough to smoke the starter!

This resistance could be in a cable (i.e. battery cable), or a junction or terminal - but you've eliminated this by applying power directly to the starter itself. So either you have resistance inside the starter itself, or the starter (or other part of the starter) is mechanically prevented from turning.

Most often the problem is with old, worn brushes that are not making sufficient contact, or a build-up of carbon that allows a partial short inside the starter. Either one is going to require an overhaul of the starter itself. I would have a look at this: viewtopic.php?t=259
As stated earlier, I've already rebuilt the starter per those instructions. It is very clean the brushes were not all that worn. And removed from the engine the starter spins with no problem. It seems most likely that there is something mechanical keeping it from turning. Is there anything I can look for without pulling the engine?

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Re: Starter wont turn the engine over

Post by RBGERSON » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:27 am

Check the battery cables themselves they can rot from the inside. And check negative cable attachment point on the frame hanger another likely spot for resistance.
HAD LOTS OF GOLDWING 75-83
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Re: Starter wont turn the engine over

Post by WingAdmin » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:34 am

OK, so you've eliminated the battery cables, and should have eliminated the starter as it was rebuilt (sorry, I didn't read back far enough in the thread).

The starter spinning freely out of the bike tells you only that the gears and starter are working with no load. Many bad starters will spin freely, but won't crank the bike.

I would try two more things:

1. Put a voltmeter across the battery when cranking the bike with it and see what the voltage is dropping to.

2. Try removing the spark plugs from the engine and see if the starter will crank it with them not installed. Be careful when doing this, an errant spark from a plug cable could turn your bike's engine into a flamethrower! It will be ejecting fuel/air mixture from the plug holes as it cranks, and you don't want this to ignite.

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Re: Starter wont turn the engine over

Post by 02z06dave » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:35 am

WingAdmin wrote:OK, so you've eliminated the battery cables, and should have eliminated the starter as it was rebuilt (sorry, I didn't read back far enough in the thread).

The starter spinning freely out of the bike tells you only that the gears and starter are working with no load. Many bad starters will spin freely, but won't crank the bike.

I would try two more things:

1. Put a voltmeter across the battery when cranking the bike with it and see what the voltage is dropping to.

2. Try removing the spark plugs from the engine and see if the starter will crank it with them not installed. Be careful when doing this, an errant spark from a plug cable could turn your bike's engine into a flamethrower! It will be ejecting fuel/air mixture from the plug holes as it cranks, and you don't want this to ignite.
The spark plugs have been removed the whole time, I have the kill switch on off and no fuel in it.

The voltage was 14.1 then dropped to 12.6 when I hit the start button

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Re: Starter wont turn the engine over

Post by WingAdmin » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:08 pm

02z06dave wrote:
WingAdmin wrote:OK, so you've eliminated the battery cables, and should have eliminated the starter as it was rebuilt (sorry, I didn't read back far enough in the thread).

The starter spinning freely out of the bike tells you only that the gears and starter are working with no load. Many bad starters will spin freely, but won't crank the bike.

I would try two more things:

1. Put a voltmeter across the battery when cranking the bike with it and see what the voltage is dropping to.

2. Try removing the spark plugs from the engine and see if the starter will crank it with them not installed. Be careful when doing this, an errant spark from a plug cable could turn your bike's engine into a flamethrower! It will be ejecting fuel/air mixture from the plug holes as it cranks, and you don't want this to ignite.
The spark plugs have been removed the whole time, I have the kill switch on off and no fuel in it.

The voltage was 14.1 then dropped to 12.6 when I hit the start button
OK, so you can turn the engine over with the rear wheel, so you know it's not seized. The voltage drop is well within what you would expect when cranking or under load. The starter has been rebuilt, and it does turn the output shaft when not installed. That leaves only a couple things remaining, and both are mechanical:

- Broken planetary gearset in starter that jams under load
- Jammed starter chain or sprocket in engine

If you can get a splined shaft or some other shaft into the primary starter sprocket (where the starter's shaft goes), see if you can manage to turn the engine that way. With a standard 12" socket wrench, you should be able to crank the engine over easily using that sprocket.

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Re: Starter wont turn the engine over

Post by Rednaxs60 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:38 pm

WingAdmin wrote:
02z06dave wrote:
WingAdmin wrote:OK, so you've eliminated the battery cables, and should have eliminated the starter as it was rebuilt (sorry, I didn't read back far enough in the thread).

The starter spinning freely out of the bike tells you only that the gears and starter are working with no load. Many bad starters will spin freely, but won't crank the bike.

I would try two more things:

1. Put a voltmeter across the battery when cranking the bike with it and see what the voltage is dropping to.

2. Try removing the spark plugs from the engine and see if the starter will crank it with them not installed. Be careful when doing this, an errant spark from a plug cable could turn your bike's engine into a flamethrower! It will be ejecting fuel/air mixture from the plug holes as it cranks, and you don't want this to ignite.
The spark plugs have been removed the whole time, I have the kill switch on off and no fuel in it.

The voltage was 14.1 then dropped to 12.6 when I hit the start button
OK, so you can turn the engine over with the rear wheel, so you know it's not seized. The voltage drop is well within what you would expect when cranking or under load. The starter has been rebuilt, and it does turn the output shaft when not installed. That leaves only a couple things remaining, and both are mechanical:

- Broken planetary gearset in starter that jams under load
- Jammed starter chain or sprocket in engine

If you can get a splined shaft or some other shaft into the primary starter sprocket (where the starter's shaft goes), see if you can manage to turn the engine that way. With a standard 12" socket wrench, you should be able to crank the engine over easily using that sprocket.
To follow up on what WingAdmin stated, if you can get a slpined shaft on the starter sprocket, you should be able to turn it one way and not the other. The direction you will be able to turn the sprocket is opposite to the way the engine turns. This should indicate that the starter clutch is free. Just another thought.

Good luck.
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Ernest

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Re: Starter wont turn the engine over

Post by 02z06dave » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:15 pm

Ok. So I pulled the starter off and took the gear out to see if I had something that would fit in it. I couldn't find anything, but I was able to reach my finger in there and turn the chain in one direction only. While I had the gear out, I tried it out on the motor to see if it was going on easily. i had a hard time getting the replacement starter I purchased installed and I though maybe it wasn't going into the gear correctly and causing some binding. It was extremely difficult to get the gear onto the starter spline, so I think that was the problem. I tried it out on the original starter and it slides on and off with ease, so I went ahead and reinstalled the original starter. This time around, it was turning the engine over perfectly as it should, so I think when I put it back in after the rebuild, I must have not had it seated correctly into the gear. Once I reinstalled the spark plugs, however, it really struggles to turn the engine over. And this is with a brand new battery that I fully recharged right before I gave it another shot. My thinking now is that maybe the starter is bad or maybe I screwed it up when I rebuilt it. I'm going to try remove it and take it apart one more time and have a look before I replace it with a brand new one.
Thank you all for your help!

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Re: Starter wont turn the engine over

Post by Rednaxs60 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:12 pm

Good to hear you have confirmed all is well with the engine. Sounds like your original starter is in need of a clean and refresh.

When you rebuilt the other starter, did you install new brushes. I had a new starter that stopped working after 6 months. When it was taken apart, the shop indicated that one of the brushes was installed wrong - the wires were routed incorrectly and could not move and make contact with the armature. Not a lot of room inside theses starters, would not take a lot to make them stop working.

Good luck as you go forward.
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Re: Starter wont turn the engine over

Post by 02z06dave » Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:31 pm

Rednaxs60 wrote:Good to hear you have confirmed all is well with the engine. Sounds like your original starter is in need of a clean and refresh.

When you rebuilt the other starter, did you install new brushes. I had a new starter that stopped working after 6 months. When it was taken apart, the shop indicated that one of the brushes was installed wrong - the wires were routed incorrectly and could not move and make contact with the armature. Not a lot of room inside theses starters, would not take a lot to make them stop working.

Good luck as you go forward.
The original was rebuilt already as well. I don't know what I did wrong the first time, but after taking it apart and putting it back together, it is working perfectly now.

Now that it's cranking over good, it won't start. It has spark so I'm going to go ahead and do the carbs next. This has been a heck of a project. When I picked it up, it was all torn apart because of a bad water pump, so installing a new one and getting it back together was first.

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Re: Starter wont turn the engine over

Post by purgeraptor » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:46 am

I have exactly the same starter problem on my 1100.

It was fine, for 3 years, then got harder and harder to turn over, especially when the engine was hot after a ride.
I also ruled out any of the electrical connections / solenoid / battery by connecting a new battery straight across the starter...made no difference, motor started to turn then just stopped as if jammed.

Fitted a brand new Mitsubishi starter, and yet another new battery, and all was well for about 4 weeks, then the same symptoms started again, difficult to start when hot.

Got worse, then wouldn't even turn from cold, then the starter motor gave up completely, and is open circuit, so obviously fried inside.
I did wonder if I had got the spline of the new motor fully engaged with the old starter sprocket, but as the starter body mount holes lined up, thought I'd done it well enough (plus it worked for 4 weeks!).

Next step is to clean and fit new brushes to the old starter (which is certainly better quality than the new replacement) and re-fit it.

I'll also take the new one apart to see what went pop.

Will post up what I find, and hopefully get my fab Gollum running again!




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Re: Starter wont turn the engine over

Post by purgeraptor » Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:16 am

OK, seem to have fixed it.

New starter from M&P is FUBAR, it's quite poorly made inside, even if it is a Mitsuba / Mitsubishi. The hot brush plate has melted the plastic insulation grommets where the mounting screws go through....poor design, should have used ceramic of better insulation. The hot wire to the coils in the casing isn't a wire, but a strip of metal, which has also got hot and melted the solder connecting it to the terminal on the hot brush plate.

Put the old starter back in, but couldn't change the brushes as rounded one of the casing screws, so that'll be a job for another day.
It is weak but working.

Main issue appears to be the grounding points from the starter casing lugs to the engine. Lots of corrosion behind them, and someone has previously painted the engine cases silver, which can't help.

Cleaned all that up, cleaned all the power leads between battery, starter and solenoid, and also swapped out the solenoid for a Kawasaki ZX7 sapare I had in my junk. Had to fit an in-line 30 A fuse, as the 'new' solonoid doesn't have one built in.

Anyway, fired up perfectly from cold, then took it for a 50 mile ride, and it fired up first go after an hour parked up.

Once home, let it sit for 5 minutes, then tried a re-start....perfect!

So problem was probably weak starter, weak solenoid, poor grounding of starter and maybe corroded power leads.

Happy Now :D

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Re: Starter wont turn the engine over

Post by ClarkGL1100 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:07 pm

Hi there im really here for advice please ...i have just finished rebuilding my 1100 ... started it ...twice... then starter stopped working .... another guy fixed it but now its turning the wrong direction ... i have no wiring problems starter is done over looks brand new inside and outside everything perfect i have done research and it shows starter should turn clockwise but mine is anti clockwise ..please any1 help????

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Re: Starter wont turn the engine over

Post by ClarkGL1100 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:16 pm

Any one out there that can help me please



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