Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm


Information and questions on GL1100 Goldwings (1980-1983)
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J Runge
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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by J Runge » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:16 am



dingdong wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:12 am
That is more than likely a sealed AGM style battery. Just install and go for a ride. Don't try to open and add acid.
It is a lead/acid type battery, exactly like the one I sent back



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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by WingAdmin » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:55 am

dingdong wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:12 am
That is more than likely a sealed AGM style battery. Just install and go for a ride. Don't try to open and add acid.
I looked that battery up:

https://www.louis.eu/artikel/variante/d ... a/10036320

It is a standard wet flooded cell battery, so yes, it is going to need to be filled with acid before use. I'm surprised, I have NEVER gotten a wet cell battery before that didn't come with acid in a bottle for you to add to the battery.

Make sure when you add the acid that you activate it properly. Let it sit for 90 minutes before doing a top charge.

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J Runge
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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by J Runge » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:19 am

WingAdmin wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:55 am
dingdong wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:12 am
That is more than likely a sealed AGM style battery. Just install and go for a ride. Don't try to open and add acid.
I looked that battery up:

https://www.louis.eu/artikel/variante/d ... a/10036320

It is a standard wet flooded cell battery, so yes, it is going to need to be filled with acid before use. I'm surprised, I have NEVER gotten a wet cell battery before that didn't come with acid in a bottle for you to add to the battery.

Make sure when you add the acid that you activate it properly. Let it sit for 90 minutes before doing a top charge.
I will do that

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purgeraptor
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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by purgeraptor » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:37 am

I had exactly this problem on my 81 GL1100.

Tried everything, new starter, new battery etc.

It turned out to be a combination of a worn out solenoid and corroded mounting points / bosses on the engine where the starter motor bolts to the engine.
Don't know why it was only a hot start problem, but it all now works perfectly hot or cold.

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J Runge
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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by J Runge » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:35 am

purgeraptor wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:37 am
I had exactly this problem on my 81 GL1100.

Tried everything, new starter, new battery etc.

It turned out to be a combination of a worn out solenoid and corroded mounting points / bosses on the engine where the starter motor bolts to the engine.
Don't know why it was only a hot start problem, but it all now works perfectly hot or cold.
I am fairly sure, that both solenoid and mounting points are in great shape, I have also inspected connections for the battery negative to the frame, and the wire from the solenoid to the starter. But if the new battery does not do the trick, I will inspect them once again

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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by purgeraptor » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:58 am

I just ground the corrosion off the mounting points with a dremmel wire wheel.

I thought my solenoid was OK, but it did more volts than it should on cranking.
I fitted a spare solenoid from a Kawasaki and then wired the main fuse to be separate.

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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by JulianR » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:27 pm

So I had the EXACT same symptoms you have: always starts normal. /then hard to start after fully warmed up unless the bike sits for 20 or 30 minutes, then it starts fine.
the bike was not a Goldwing, but a VT500 Ascot. This is a common problem on the VT500 Shadow/Ascot and comes up frequently on that forum. The solution is to change both your ignition coils, EVEN IF THEY TEST FINE.
there is extensive electrical explanation for the problem on the VT500 forums. I'm an not an electrical engineer and do not understand all the technical explanation, but the gist of the problem is that after 20 or 30 years the coils do not perform to spec when hot. When cold, the old coils can do their job, but as soon as they get hot (from engine heat) they will not provide enough spark to start the engine until they cool down a bit.
I used Dynatec coils and they solved the problem IMMEDIATELY and that is the only change I made to address the problem. it has been 3 years since I replaced the coils on my Ascot and I have never had the hot starting problem return. Original Honda OEM coils are available, but I went with Dynatec for cost savings. (the pair of coils on ebay was about $125.00)
I could not believe the difference, since my old coils would always start the bike, but there you have it. again, lots of technical explanation on the VT500 forums and many gratelful owners there have used this solution, myself included as it is not one I would have EVER thought of or diagnosed myself...
Hope this helps,
Julian

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J Runge
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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by J Runge » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:40 am

JulianR wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:27 pm
So I had the EXACT same symptoms you have: always starts normal. /then hard to start after fully warmed up unless the bike sits for 20 or 30 minutes, then it starts fine.
the bike was not a Goldwing, but a VT500 Ascot. This is a common problem on the VT500 Shadow/Ascot and comes up frequently on that forum. The solution is to change both your ignition coils, EVEN IF THEY TEST FINE.
there is extensive electrical explanation for the problem on the VT500 forums. I'm an not an electrical engineer and do not understand all the technical explanation, but the gist of the problem is that after 20 or 30 years the coils do not perform to spec when hot. When cold, the old coils can do their job, but as soon as they get hot (from engine heat) they will not provide enough spark to start the engine until they cool down a bit.
I used Dynatec coils and they solved the problem IMMEDIATELY and that is the only change I made to address the problem. it has been 3 years since I replaced the coils on my Ascot and I have never had the hot starting problem return. Original Honda OEM coils are available, but I went with Dynatec for cost savings. (the pair of coils on ebay was about $125.00)
I could not believe the difference, since my old coils would always start the bike, but there you have it. again, lots of technical explanation on the VT500 forums and many gratelful owners there have used this solution, myself included as it is not one I would have EVER thought of or diagnosed myself...
Hope this helps,
Julian
So you are telling me, that the engine turns over slowly, the First rev or so, due to bad ignitioncoils

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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by JulianR » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:09 am

No, I never said that slow cranking is caused by old ignition coils.

Just relaying my experience and exasperation with the same symptoms and how I resolved it.

On a 30 year old bike, many things will contribute to poor cranking and starting, many listed by
other posters in this thread: , poor grounds, old starter solenoid, less than perfect battery, old cables,
weak charging (failing stator) , worn starter brushes, corroded fuse/ electrical connections and on and on.

What I am saying is that the root cause may be old ignition coils, for the symptoms stated in the original post (emphasis added).
If the bike starts fine when stone cold , then likely all the above items are serviceable.
If the bike starts fine when cold, but after running and fully warmed up won't restart until it sits 20 or 30 minutes, then consider the coils.

No one has mentioned the coils as the culprit and It cured the same problem for me.
You may have other components (like your starter) that are close to failing but still working now. However, that would not
explain why the bike won't restart when warm unless it sits for a half hour.

Best of Luck.

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J Runge
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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by J Runge » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:29 pm

JulianR wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:09 am
No, I never said that slow cranking is caused by old ignition coils.

Just relaying my experience and exasperation with the same symptoms and how I resolved it.

On a 30 year old bike, many things will contribute to poor cranking and starting, many listed by
other posters in this thread: , poor grounds, old starter solenoid, less than perfect battery, old cables,
weak charging (failing stator) , worn starter brushes, corroded fuse/ electrical connections and on and on.

What I am saying is that the root cause may be old ignition coils, for the symptoms stated in the original post (emphasis added).
If the bike starts fine when stone cold , then likely all the above items are serviceable.
If the bike starts fine when cold, but after running and fully warmed up won't restart until it sits 20 or 30 minutes, then consider the coils.

No one has mentioned the coils as the culprit and It cured the same problem for me.
You may have other components (like your starter) that are close to failing but still working now. However, that would not
explain why the bike won't restart when warm unless it sits for a half hour.

Best of Luck.
Ok
I wil have that in mind, when I get the battery up and running. I have been quite busy lately, so have not gotten to filling the battery with acid, letting it sit and charge it.

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J Runge
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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by J Runge » Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:49 am

Batteri filled
It stood for 1,5 hour
I charged it to 100% Put it in the bike, and tried to start the bike, still cranks slowly the first rev, even cold now.

I tried to make a parallel ground direktly between the battery and the starter housing, no difference.

So at this point, I have a one year old starter. Fairly new aftermarked solenoid, brand new battery, all connections inspected.

Cranks slowly, starts right up, when the engine cranking picks up speed.

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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by JulianR » Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:01 am

with the symptoms you now have(slow cranking at first, then cranks faster and starts- hot or cold) , it does not appear that your coils are likely the problem.

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J Runge
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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by J Runge » Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:07 am

JulianR wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:01 am
with the symptoms you now have(slow cranking at first, then cranks faster and starts- hot or cold) , it does not appear that your coils are likely the problem.
It starts every time, if the engine cranks fast enough, but it struggles to crank the damned thing. I think I week try, to jump it, with a.bigger battery, just to see, if it does a difference.
Maybe the DELO is just too weak a starter battery

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J Runge
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Re: Starts up perfect cold, seems to struggle when warm

Post by J Runge » Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:31 am

Oki, now it is just getting weird.

I wanted to make you at video, so you could see and hear, what I am up against, and it behaves it self. She is trying to dricve me insane :shock: :D :D



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