Sudden failure left me stranded


Information and questions on GL1200 Goldwings (1984-1987)
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DenverWinger
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Re: Sudden failure left me stranded

Post by DenverWinger » Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:52 am



Additionally, The test described by Rambozo should be done with the rectifier disconnected. At 3000 RPM you should see somewhere around 50-70 Volts AC on each of the three readings.

One more test while the rectifier is disconnected, with engine off measure ohms from one of the stator leads to ground. Should be no reading (open circuit).

OEM Regulator should give 13.8-14.5 volts at the battery at 3000 RPM, the regulator you have may behave differently.... As long as you are over reading over 12.7 volts at the battery you are not discharging, 15 volts (not over that, though) is ok after startup, the battery will accept a good amount of juice right after cranking, if it settles down in the 13 volt range you are still charging battery.


♫ 99 Little Bugs in the Code, ♪
♪ 99 Bugs in the Code. ♫ :(
♫ Take one down, Patch it around, ♪
♫ 127 Little Bugs in the Code. ♫ ♪ :shock:

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Goofaroo
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Re: Sudden failure left me stranded

Post by Goofaroo » Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:08 pm

I checked the voltage output from every combination possible between the three wires from the stator. It read identical output at every combination. It still outputs just under 13 volts at the battery at idle and climbs to just over 15v at 4500-5000 RPM until it warms up and then registers 13v to 14v when ran at higher rpm. Drops to slightly under 13v at 1000 rpm idle. Sound normal?

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DenverWinger
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Re: Sudden failure left me stranded

Post by DenverWinger » Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:21 pm

I'd say it's working fine..... :)
♫ 99 Little Bugs in the Code, ♪
♪ 99 Bugs in the Code. ♫ :(
♫ Take one down, Patch it around, ♪
♫ 127 Little Bugs in the Code. ♫ ♪ :shock:

~Mark

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Goofaroo
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Re: Sudden failure left me stranded

Post by Goofaroo » Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:38 pm

DenverWinger wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:21 pm
I'd say it's working fine..... :)
If anything I’m wondering why it is spiking at over 15v. I’ve never seen that on my other bikes.

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DenverWinger
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Re: Sudden failure left me stranded

Post by DenverWinger » Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:50 pm

Probably the brand of regulator, if it's only at 15 volts for a little while after starting it, then stays between 13-14 you'll be OK. The battery will stand 15 volts for a short time, and the 15v helps quickly put back the juice used by cranking the starter.
♫ 99 Little Bugs in the Code, ♪
♪ 99 Bugs in the Code. ♫ :(
♫ Take one down, Patch it around, ♪
♫ 127 Little Bugs in the Code. ♫ ♪ :shock:

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Goofaroo
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Re: Sudden failure left me stranded

Post by Goofaroo » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:14 pm

DenverWinger wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:50 pm
Probably the brand of regulator, if it's only at 15 volts for a little while after starting it, then stays between 13-14 you'll be OK. The battery will stand 15 volts for a short time, and the 15v helps quickly put back the juice used by cranking the starter.
Thanks. I think I’m going to tidy everything up and add the jumper wire to the starter solenoid and call it a day.

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Re: Sudden failure left me stranded

Post by Goofaroo » Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:46 pm

I’m working on the wing today and had a few questions. I just clipped out the terminal to to the stator and I’m going to hardwire it. I put a grommet in the tab where the terminal would be mounted and routed the wire through and it’s ready for solder. My question is about the empty spot next to where I ran the wires. To the left of the grommet for the battery vent hose. It appears to have witness marks where a terminal was mounted there but I don’t have a terminal that matches it or even a terminal anywhere near it. It’s hard to tell if it has just rusted or if it’s a witness. Maybe for a different model and unused on mine?



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Goofaroo
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Re: Sudden failure left me stranded

Post by Goofaroo » Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:58 pm

Then this mess is getting a facelift. Can someone verify from the photo or my crude schematic that it is wired correctly into the solenoid?





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CrystalPistol
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Re: Sudden failure left me stranded

Post by CrystalPistol » Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:13 pm

Goofaroo wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:15 pm
… etc …
Other observations:

The rectifier gets very hot. I know that’s why it is finned but how hot should it get?

The three wire terminal from the stator gets warm but doesn’t show any sign of ever being hot.

With the bike idling I checked voltage from each of the three yellow wires from the stator. Each measured right around 5.8 volts.

… etc …
Does it sound like I’m on the right track and the system is operating more or less as it should?
HOT enough it'll cook meat if you leave a hand on it long.

Your DC volt testing isn't correct, here's ther correct testing method.
The following article submitted by Ken Chapin on Dec 26, 1999
GL 1000/1100/1200 Stator Testing Procedures
For the purpose of testing the Stator assembly, use the following procedure:
1. check the ACG coupler for discoloration, which indicates overheating and it is faulty. This is the connector to the immediate left of the battery and consists of 3 yellow wires. If the connector is found to be discolored and/or brittle from overheating, an ACG Coupler Repair Kit (Part # 31105-ML8-305) is available from your local HONDA dealer. Ensure that the coupler is well packed with dielectric grease. An alternative is to remove the coupler altogether and ?hardwire/solder? the yellow wires together. This method is also acceptable but does make future testing somewhat difficult and would require cutting of the wiring.
2. unplug the ACG coupler and start the engine.
WARNING: Unplugging the ACG coupler while the engine is running can cause sparks which can ignite flammable fuel vapors. You could be burned. Do not unplug the ACG coupler while the engine is running.
3. with a Voltmeter, measure the A.C. voltage between each pair of the three (3) yellow wires in the ACG coupler that leads to the rear of the engine and enters through the rubber grommet leading to the Stator. Conduct the voltage tests between wires A and B, A and C and finally between B and C. With the engine at a steady 3,000 RPM, the voltage should be at least 50 Volts of A.C. voltage from each pair (or phase).
4. if the test indicates 50 Volts A.C. voltage or more from each pair (or phase), the Stator does not require replacement. However, if either pair of wires does show less than 50 Volts of A.C. voltage, replace the Stator.
5. Continuity tests must also be performed to determine if the Stator has developed an electrical short within itself or if it has shorted to ?ground?. With your tester set on the Ohmeter @ R X 1, check for continuity between each pair (or phase) of yellow wires, A and B, A and C and B and C. You should have continuity at all three pairs (or phases). If you find any one pair with no continuity, then this indicates an open circuit in the windings of the Stator and it requires replacement. Then check for continuity between each yellow wire to a source of ?ground?. You should NOT have continuity and if you do find continuity at any wire, this indicates a short within the Stator windings and requires replacement.
** for your Stator to be healthy, it must pass all of the above tests.
Some things don't change. I changed out the plug on my 1200 in the '90s, the PO had hardwired it. I used the Honda repair kit myself (Honda # 31105-ML8-305) and when I put it in, I disassembled it and soldered the wire in the crimps, then packed the connector with dielectric grease, plugged and wrapped in tape. Many miles & years later, inspection revealed it looked new still.


I did not use the hole in the bracket beside the battery vent tube.
Make Courtesy your "Code of the Road" …

… & Have a Safe Trip!
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Goofaroo
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Re: Sudden failure left me stranded

Post by Goofaroo » Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:49 pm

I never checked AC but I did do the Steve Saunders method and they all read right at 4.8 volts.


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There is good continuity between any combination of the three wires. There is no measurable continuity between any of the three wires and ground. I’ve come this far and it appears to be charging so I’m gonna give it a whirl. I’m just trying to tidy it up and give it a fighting chance. If it doesn’t cooperate I’ll probably do the poor boy route.

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CrystalPistol
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Re: Sudden failure left me stranded

Post by CrystalPistol » Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:59 pm

To me, my experiences, 13 Vdc is OK with a good battery after recharge from the most recent start, but a little bit lower than my 1200 did? Usually I saw 13.5 - 14 running warmed up, but if I flipped on those twin 37.5 watt driving lights I had, it smoothed out mid - low 13s.

With what I read above, I'd say you stator is A-OK for now. I posted the test procedure mainly just to put it out there in a clear concise form. Alternators put out AC volts before rectification to DC.

On the bike, I had an analog volt meter to battery, but I checked stuff using digital and analog test meters.
Make Courtesy your "Code of the Road" …

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Goofaroo
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Re: Sudden failure left me stranded

Post by Goofaroo » Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:28 pm

So I made a harness and tidied up the connections to the starter solenoid. I incorporated the jumper wire between the red and the red and white wire.


I also cut out the terminal block to the stator. Soldered it up, put heat shrink on each connection, wrapped each wire in electrical tape, and then wrapped it all up with self vulcanizing harness tape.


I also drained the old fuel and replaced with fresh. Now it barely runs and when it can get it to rev its not outputting at all like it was. Never much more than 12 volts. lol

As far as I know this the only real difference is the jumper from the red to red and white wire. Any thoughts?

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Goofaroo
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Re: Sudden failure left me stranded

Post by Goofaroo » Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:53 pm

I decided to fire it up again and see what happens today. lol. It turned over, battery was fully charged overnight, but it wouldn’t start. In the interest of science I decided to clip the new jumper wire and sure enough it started up. A bit of warming up and at idle it is now reading as low as 12.7volts. Rev it to 4000 and it increases to about 13.7volts. Not nearly the 15volts that I was seeing before. I then turned on a turn signal and watched the other side signal. A slight drop in brightness when the signal flashes. A bit more drop in brightness when the brake light is applied. I didn’t do this before the mod. Is that normal or is it possible that I’ve damaged the new regulator?

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CrystalPistol
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Re: Sudden failure left me stranded

Post by CrystalPistol » Mon Mar 23, 2020 4:56 pm

Goofaroo wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:53 pm
I decided to fire it up again and see what happens today. lol. It turned over, battery was fully charged overnight, but it wouldn’t start. In the interest of science I decided to clip the new jumper wire and sure enough it started up. A bit of warming up and at idle it is now reading as low as 12.7volts. Rev it to 4000 and it increases to about 13.7volts. Not nearly the 15volts that I was seeing before. I then turned on a turn signal and watched the other side signal. A slight drop in brightness when the signal flashes. A bit more drop in brightness when the brake light is applied. I didn’t do this before the mod. Is that normal or is it possible that I’ve damaged the new regulator?
If you mean "the new jumper wire" as in that blue line on my schematic a few post back, if cutting that let the bike start and now voltage is lower, then clipping that jumper simply eliminated a short circuit to ground. You aren't using the Honda replacement plug kit which locates the wires on the solenoid. Not counting the two big hex terminals to which big wires run to battery + and starter motor + terminals, you have 4 terminals that are spades.
Two of those are connected directly within the solenoid, and they are also joined by "new jumper wire" outside the solenoid … parallel.
1 … one is for the red wire to ignition swith for power for stuff, like lights
2 … second one is for the red/white wire from a splice of two from the regulator/rectifier
3 … third is for the "trigger wire" that get's it's power by you pressing the start button,
4 … forth is the green or ground side of the coil winding of the electro magnet that get's activated by the third just described.
The 30 amp dog-bone fuse is in the solenoid located between the hex terminal from the battery + terminal and the internal jumper between spade #1 and spade #2, it's there to protect bike wiring from high battery current in case of a short circuit to ground. Once the bike is running, it'll run all day with that 30 amp fuse blown, but it will not start if shut off.
If using those little spades connectors in the wrong order, if the red/white wires get grounded, yeah, could be bad for the regulator/rectifier but not because of the jumper, unless some other short or if hooked to that ground terminal #4 maybe? It getting better after clipping the jumper tells me the jumper was tying the red/white wire (s) to a short somehow. If wired correctly, this would not happen because the jumper only duplicates an existing path, it just takes load off the plug itself.

I no longer have my 1200 books … nor my 1200 either … so I can't say for certainty which is which on the solenoid itself. It did not matter how the three yellow wires to the stator were wired, which to which … but it does matter these wires at the solenoid.

32110-ML8-305 is the Honda Solenoid plug repair kit, might look it up and look close at wire positions, a thought.
31105-ML8-305 is the Honda AGC plug repair kit for three yellow wires in front of battery, order does not matter.
The numbers are easily confused.
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Goofaroo
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Re: Sudden failure left me stranded

Post by Goofaroo » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:32 am

I ordered one of the kits. Thanks for your help. I’m going to try to check for a short in my system while I wait for the kit to arrive.

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CrystalPistol
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Re: Sudden failure left me stranded

Post by CrystalPistol » Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:22 pm



Looking again at my OEM factory service manual picture with my notes, it occurred to me that you may have a short after the solenoid on the solid red line that goes to feed the ignition switch and other components.

I put another copy up there for ease. :idea:

That pair of red/white wire feeds current from the reg/rec to the plug as you can see, the red wire feeds it to the bike components, some have fuses but there's wire between the solenoid plug and switch, a good deal of it. Might be why your plug was melted and replaced, besides too much current for the terminals, a short too?

Hope it helps..
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Goofaroo
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Re: Sudden failure left me stranded

Post by Goofaroo » Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:32 am

With the battery connected and ignition off I get continuity between the red and r/w wires. With the negative battery terminal disconnected I get no continuity between them. I also get no continuity between any of the four wires in every combination and I get no continuity between them and ground. Any ideas?

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Re: Sudden failure left me stranded

Post by CrystalPistol » Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:32 am

Goofaroo wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:32 am
With the battery connected and ignition off I get continuity between the red and r/w wires.

With the negative battery terminal disconnected I get no continuity between them. I also get no continuity between any of the four wires in every combination and I get no continuity between them and ground. Battery still disconnected I guess?

Any ideas?
I did not reword your post, I rearranged it to help me keep it clearer.

If wired correctly to a good solenoid, disconnecting the battery negative should not affect continuity between the red & R/W wires hooked to the solenoid as there is that internal jumper between them that also connects to the battery positive through the 30 amp dog bone fuse. With the battery negative connected seemingly giving you continuity between the red & R/W wires hooked to the solenoid leads me to believe there is a short, that the "continuity" you see is really a short. Even with the red & R/W wires only connected to the solenoid, that internal link is there, they should show continuity even if on a bench.
Make Courtesy your "Code of the Road" …

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Re: Sudden failure left me stranded

Post by Goofaroo » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:51 am

I really appreciate your help with this.
My continuity tests were done with the wires disconnected from the solenoid. I was hoping to find an obvious short but nothing turned up. I’m moving on to other projects but I should have the factory upgrade harness in a day or two. I’ll report back when I get it and have a chance to compare it to my homemade harness. Thanks again for your input!

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Re: Sudden failure left me stranded

Post by CrystalPistol » Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:37 pm

Try checking from each terminal of the solenoid to ground, no wires connected.
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Re: Sudden failure left me stranded

Post by Goofaroo » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:00 am

I got the kit and there are some differences from the way I had it wired. Most notably it appears that only three connections are made to the solenoid. The red/white wire is spliced to the red wire upstream.

We have been doing our part to try to help control the virus and staying at home. I was down to about 1 1/2” of solder and didn’t want to go to the store to buy some and sure enough the kit even included solder. I’m hoping to get this installed today as per the detailed instructions and see what happens. I hope I didn’t damage anything on my previous attempt.









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Goofaroo
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Re: Sudden failure left me stranded

Post by Goofaroo » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:09 am

CrystalPistol wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:37 pm
Try checking from each terminal of the solenoid to ground, no wires connected.
Will do this first and report my findings.

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Goofaroo
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Re: Sudden failure left me stranded

Post by Goofaroo » Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:29 am

With none of the wires connected except for the large ones on the posts and the negative terminal removed from the battery I get no continuity to ground from any of the four terminals.

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Re: Sudden failure left me stranded

Post by Goofaroo » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:01 am

I decided to modify my homebuilt harness to replicate the new one from Honda just to see what would happen. With the three terminal connection and the r/w wire spliced into the red it is now charging at12.3 volts at 1000 rpm idle. At a constant 2000 rpm it is charging at 13.3v. At a constant 4000 rpm it is charging at about 14v. These results are after running for about 15 minutes. When I first started it applying throttle would send it up over 15 volts but now after a bit more time running revving it will only yield about 12.9v. Does it sound like the regulator is working and everything is operating as it should?

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Re: Sudden failure left me stranded

Post by CrystalPistol » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:52 am

Goofaroo wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:01 am
I decided to modify my homebuilt harness to replicate the new one from Honda just to see what would happen. With the three terminal connection and the r/w wire spliced into the red it is now charging at12.3 volts at 1000 rpm idle. At a constant 2000 rpm it is charging at 13.3v. At a constant 4000 rpm it is charging at about 14v. These results are after running for about 15 minutes. When I first started it applying throttle would send it up over 15 volts but now after a bit more time running revving it will only yield about 12.9v. Does it sound like the regulator is working and everything is operating as it should?
Sounds or reads "not bad". Vdc drops as battery is recharged after starting the bike, it needs a charge up. As it is brought back up, it takes less charge rate.

Too high & bulbs blow. Fully charged, perfect world, no drain, normalized just off the charger, 12 volt battery of 6 cells X 2.2 Vdc per cell = 13.2 Vdc. On your bike, there's the clock memory pulling it down.

Below is a couple three pics of when I was checking mine and my 12 Vdc SunPro volt meter. When I installed the meter I wired it through a relay activated by the accy terminal or a switch with out the key just to check occasionally. I also switched the back-light. This day, bike off, just volt meter on and battery was also operating bike memory as well as two other meters, all at 12.8 Vdc.








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