Wing threw a timing belt ... what now?


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Lucky07
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Wing threw a timing belt ... what now?

Post by Lucky07 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:29 pm



So I'm sitting by the side of the road waiting for my old man to get here with the trailer right now. Trying to make a game plan for when I get her back home.

Was riding maybe 55 mph, not under heavy power then BANG! Right side timing belt gives out. I clutched in almost instantaneously and coasted her to a stop.

Last winter I rebuilt everything up front. New timing belts, new idlers, crank and cam seals. Everything put back together by the book. Everything was working mint until it poofed. I'm assuming its the belt that gave up the ghost but I won't know for sure 'til I get her home and torn appart. What are the odds that a brand new belt fails this quick ... just my luck I guess.

What's my next step after checking what broke on the belt side of things? Do I just pull the head and see what kind of damage I'm dealing with and start the rebuild? Sometimes trying to save headaches by doing things the easy/cheaper way ends up being a bigger PITA and costlier, so long as the piston/s isn't completly destroyed I'll assume the Crods are ok and maybe go all the way to changing pistons.

I'm at a bit of a loss lol ... this sucks big time.

If there are any goldwing gurus from the ottawa/eastern ontario area on here that would be willing to give me a hand (experience and opinion wise, I can do the work no problem, but experience is something that cant be bought or rushed and saves alot of trouble) I would be more than willing to pay someone in cash, beer or hugs even lol for a little help with this unfortunate conundrum.



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Wilcoy02
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Re: Wing threw a timing belt ... what now?

Post by Wilcoy02 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:58 pm

Hand crank the engine to see what noises you get. Crank it from the rear of the engine. That will give you an idea of damage.

Good Luck.

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DenverWinger
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Re: Wing threw a timing belt ... what now?

Post by DenverWinger » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:57 am

At some point or another during the repair (if there is to be one) the timing belt covers and the head will have to come off. I'd start there.

Timing covers would allow you to confirm a belt let go, and removing the head would show the damage done. Can range from holed pistons to just a couple bent valves.
♫ 99 Little Bugs in the Code, ♪
♪ 99 Bugs in the Code. ♫ :(
♫ Take one down, Patch it around, ♪
♫ 127 Little Bugs in the Code. ♫ ♪ :shock:

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Re: Wing threw a timing belt ... what now?

Post by Big Blue UK » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:01 am

Odds of a recent timing belt breaking can be 50/50, odds it happening to a Honda or Gates belt is something I have never heard of. If there was a actual BANG, then something may have come adrift or fractured, which may or may not be better than throwing a timing belt, good luck.
If at first you don't succeed, hide the evidence.

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Re: Wing threw a timing belt ... what now?

Post by Lucky07 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:48 pm

So the belt didn't break. The cam bolt blew through the timing belt cover (thats what you get for following the service manual) and the pulley for the right cam belt moved forward until it worked itsself off the keyway. So she spun on the crank shaft.

My plan now is to figure out how to put the right side back in time. Spin her by hand to make sure nothings binding then do a compression test. That should tell me right away if I have a bent valve thats not seating properly right? I figure the damage is already done if there is any so as long as I get her in time I can hit the starter for a compression test and wont do any more damage than what already might be there.
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Lucky07
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Re: Wing threw a timing belt ... what now?

Post by Lucky07 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:46 pm

Well. Scratch that last post lol

Here is the head and both pistons.

..... anyone have opinions on which direction I should take now?
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DenverWinger
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Re: Wing threw a timing belt ... what now?

Post by DenverWinger » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:49 am

Can't say for sure due to the angle of the pictures, but it looks to me like the pistons have survived. You'll need a set of valves for that head, they're certainly bent, or maybe just find another head, whichever is easier. Think valves are not quite yet made of "Unobtainium", maybe someone here knows where to get them, or has an extra right-side Cylinder head they'd sell...

Use your judgement on the pistons, I don't see any big damage on them from these pictures, maybe more pictures from a side angle would help...
♫ 99 Little Bugs in the Code, ♪
♪ 99 Bugs in the Code. ♫ :(
♫ Take one down, Patch it around, ♪
♫ 127 Little Bugs in the Code. ♫ ♪ :shock:

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Re: Wing threw a timing belt ... what now?

Post by dingdong » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:07 am

I just have to ask. How did following the manual cause that bolt to back out?
Tom

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Lucky07
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Re: Wing threw a timing belt ... what now?

Post by Lucky07 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:22 am

dingdong wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:07 am
I just have to ask. How did following the manual cause that bolt to back out?
I torqued everything to spec even though my gut told me to put the impact on it and winch her right tight. If I remember right crank bolt is 55 lbs ... seemed kind of light at the time and now I know I was right lol

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Lucky07
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Re: Wing threw a timing belt ... what now?

Post by Lucky07 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:29 am

DenverWinger wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:49 am
Can't say for sure due to the angle of the pictures, but it looks to me like the pistons have survived. You'll need a set of valves for that head, they're certainly bent, or maybe just find another head, whichever is easier. Think valves are not quite yet made of "Unobtainium", maybe someone here knows where to get them, or has an extra right-side Cylinder head they'd sell...

Use your judgement on the pistons, I don't see any big damage on them from these pictures, maybe more pictures from a side angle would help...
I'll get a couple more pictures of the pistons tonight at an angle. If theres only minimal damage to the piston the connecting rod shouldnt have suffered too much I assume?

I'll look into getting a set of valves tomm. What are the chances any damage was done to the head with the valves bent that far? Seems like they are alot more bent than what I was expecting having never dealt with this kind of issue.

One last thing, any opinion on the amount of carbon buildup in there? Looks to me like the old man who had it before lugged it quite a bit. Shes probably hardly ever seen anything past 5000 rpm before I came along.

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Re: Wing threw a timing belt ... what now?

Post by Rednaxs60 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:39 am

Pistons look good, to check for impact, rotate the crank until the piston crowns are out all the way and make sure they come out even with the block. You are going to need new valves as mentioned, if so, I'd take both heads off, take into a local machine shop and have the heads freshened before putting the heads back on. The shop will clean up valves and valve seats. The shop will also check the valve guides for play, the valve guides are pretty robust.

Here's an eBay link for intake/exhaust valves: https://www.ebay.ca/b/Motorcycle-Engine ... n_19473204

Question- why did you have to remove the crank bolt when changing the timing belts. Blue loctite and 55 ft/lbs should be good.

Good luck.
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Lucky07
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Re: Wing threw a timing belt ... what now?

Post by Lucky07 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:06 am

Had to change a leaky crank seal

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Re: Wing threw a timing belt ... what now?

Post by Rednaxs60 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:09 am

Lucky07 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:06 am
Had to change a leaky crank seal
That'll do it.
"When you write the story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen"

Ernest

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Re: Wing threw a timing belt ... what now?

Post by Lucky07 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:54 pm

I'm looking at valves online and I think it might be cheaper to just find a good used head locally if I can and swap the whole thing. Thems valves are expensive.

Would I be correct in assuming I have to change the stem seals as well?

I may end up pulling the other side and getting it freshened up too. New stem seals and gaskets on both sides would probably do it some good and seeing as I already have one side off I may as well go for gold I guess.

Good news is connecting rods seem ok (edge of the piston is supposed to be dead flush with the top of the jug right?) and the pistons only have a slight nick in them. All that carbon buildup must absorbed some of the impact lol.

Now just have to find a complete head and a good machine shop.

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Re: Wing threw a timing belt ... what now?

Post by Lucky07 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:23 am

Update on ze little project:

Valves were too much of a pain to source cheaply and quickly. Just my luck I go on ebay and find a good complete head that's already been cleaned in montreal for 80$ shipped to my door. Ordered an oem head gasket and all seals from mother honda exept the camshaft oil seal. 19$ from honda or 2.50 at Napa ... took the cheap route.

Started the reassembly last night. Prepared the head, cleaned the block as best I could. Put the head back on. Found the proper placement for the cam in relation to the crank which was a bit of a PITA. Cam and crank bolts all got blue loctite and a little more oomph than the service manual calls for... don't want a repeat of this adventure anytime soon lol. Spun her by hand making damn sure everything looked good. Adjusted the valves and put the covers back on.

Then came the time for the compression test, turns out I didn't have the right sized fitting for those tiny spark plugs. Oh well, I hit the starter and see what happens, spun good, no funny sounds. Then I decided to just throw the plugs in and give it a go. The old girl fired right up and was purring just like she's supposed to.

Next is going to be a heat cycle once I get the rad back in place to make sure nothings leaking. Head bolts I'll retorque after I go for a little test ride when it's nice out. And I think I'm pretty well done.

Crappy thing to have happen but I got out of it for 200$ so it's not too bad. Just suck I had to blow my sound system budget on this so now it'll have to wait.

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Re: Wing threw a timing belt ... what now?

Post by CrystalPistol » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:45 am

Lucky07 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:22 am
dingdong wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:07 am
I just have to ask. How did following the manual cause that bolt to back out?
I torqued everything to spec even though my gut told me to put the impact on it and winch her right tight. If I remember right crank bolt is 55 lbs ... seemed kind of light at the time and now I know I was right lol
55 ft/lbs is "right tight" for that size bolt, how much tighter would you go anyway?
Image

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Lucky07
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Re: Wing threw a timing belt ... what now?

Post by Lucky07 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:20 pm

CrystalPistol wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:45 am
Lucky07 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:22 am
dingdong wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:07 am
I just have to ask. How did following the manual cause that bolt to back out?
I torqued everything to spec even though my gut told me to put the impact on it and winch her right tight. If I remember right crank bolt is 55 lbs ... seemed kind of light at the time and now I know I was right lol
55 ft/lbs is "right tight" for that size bolt, how much tighter would you go anyway?
Go by feel, tighter than 55 but well before it stresses too much. 55 with no loctite obviously didnt cut it or she wouldnt have backed out on its own causing me all kinds of headaches. The point isnt that 55 isnt enough, its that ot wasnt enough in this case which causes some problems. 65 might have been enough to hold.... maybe not, well never know now anyways.

95% of the time a service manual will be right, but anything that was simply based on math has the potential to not work as the engineers planned. Ergo the weight on the front of the forks for example.

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Re: Wing threw a timing belt ... what now?

Post by Thomas Berry » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:13 pm

Lucky07 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:54 pm
I'm looking at valves online and I think it might be cheaper to just find a good used head locally if I can and swap the whole thing. Thems valves are expensive.

Would I be correct in assuming I have to change the stem seals as well?

I may end up pulling the other side and getting it freshened up too. New stem seals and gaskets on both sides would probably do it some good and seeing as I already have one side off I may as well go for gold I guess.

Good news is connecting rods seem ok (edge of the piston is supposed to be dead flush with the top of the jug right?) and the pistons only have a slight nick in them. All that carbon buildup must absorbed some of the impact lol.

Now just have to find a complete head and a good machine shop.
I would use the heads that came off your bike. Used heads will or should be reworked also. I rebuild engines daily, I would NEVER stick used heads on unless they were reworked. Valves ground, Seats resurfaced, and checked for cracks and valve guides checked. Any thing less is a halve ass rebuild. If you do it right there is no room for error or second guess. You can get away with just doing the one head if compression on other side is up to par. You might be able to find Good used valves, but again need to be reworked. DO NOT put used valves or heads on without reworking them or testing them. Waste of time.



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