Fuel odor


Information and questions on GL1800 Goldwings (2001-2017)
peppilepew
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by peppilepew » Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:44 am



GoldWingrGreg wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:06 am
I'm still working on it, but it will be done soon. Unfortunately, the reason I didn't want to get more involved with it, is because I've seen so much of this. Often a dealer will do a good engine/trans repair, but the quality of the re-installation lacks lots of attention.

I've worked on a couple of Wings, like doing a 24k service that has a set price, but when it was all said and done, I basically told the customer that I don't want to work his Wing again. Routing can be so critical, that refitting a shelter is extremely time consuming because a harness is routed wrong. And the only way to correct it is to pull the engine, or harness, or cut the harness and re-splice it (not).
Thanks for the reassurance of faith in dealer work. :D I feel for you there. Fortunately while expensive, there are alternatives to inexperienced careless flat rate techs. We pay for something in a value added manner when purchasing something new. In my case, CycleMax honey brook, PA sold me a 4 year extended warranty for cheap money. What I found while fighting for the cut seat to be replaced is that the bike had been registered as a demo in January of 2013. I purchased it in October of 13. Honda was running the three year warranty from January. I was short the full 3 year warranty by 9 months. I would have not know this had the seat issue not been there. I also forgot to mention here that I also replaced the final drive with a trike take-out. I didn't want to wait, or let the dealer touch it. My now closed transmission shop put me in the same position as you many times. In my final year of business I had become so soured that I was telling people to get the f out of my shop. My techs, coupled with customers not understanding anything but the low end price simply wore me out. How can someone expect a price when I don't know what needs repairing, or what complications are to be encountered? People that patronized my shop after having multiple diags from other sources often had completely wrong diagnosis. It was completely normal to find something other than what they were told was wrong.



peppilepew
Posts: 477
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by peppilepew » Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:58 am

GoldWingrGreg wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:23 pm
So there's that story, here is another. A guy has another Honda dealer doing his trans repair, calls up and want to purchase and have shipped an undercut transmission from me. No problem, send payment and include an add'l $1000 for the core. Once I get a report back on your core damage, what ever money is owed back, I send 4-6 weeks later.

With the transmission I send this picture of needed parts back. This is what the tech sends back. Nearly all valuable parts have no value because of rust.
No mainshaft and related parts. He obviously left the stuff outside in the rain. I had many transmission cores come back broken and missing parts. It got tired real quick when I was paying top dollar for cores myself. It's simply impossible to run a automotive transmission business without good used shelved parts. While the tech sees the part as junk, we see it as money. We need parts on hand or our cash flow drops while waiting for shipments that can be so dissatisfying.

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GoldWingrGreg
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by GoldWingrGreg » Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:13 pm

peppilepew wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:44 am

Thanks for the reassurance of faith in dealer work. :D I feel for you there. Fortunately while expensive, there are alternatives to inexperienced careless flat rate techs. We pay for something in a value added manner when purchasing something new. In my case, CycleMax honey brook, PA sold me a 4 year extended warranty for cheap money. What I found while fighting for the cut seat to be replaced is that the bike had been registered as a demo in January of 2013. I purchased it in October of 13. Honda was running the three year warranty from January. I was short the full 3 year warranty by 9 months. I would have not know this had the seat issue not been there. I also forgot to mention here that I also replaced the final drive with a trike take-out. I didn't want to wait, or let the dealer touch it. My now closed transmission shop put me in the same position as you many times. In my final year of business I had become so soured that I was telling people to get the f out of my shop. My techs, coupled with customers not understanding anything but the low end price simply wore me out. How can someone expect a price when I don't know what needs repairing, or what complications are to be encountered? People that patronized my shop after having multiple diags from other sources often had completely wrong diagnosis. It was completely normal to find something other than what they were told was wrong.
I'm very fortunate, and this would be difficult to do unless someone truly specialized. But from the get go, I positioned myself to be the premier GL1800 shop in world. Which in my case was easy to do after I'd discovered a few things about GL1800. First was the need to have parts on hand. In the beginning, everything I touched had damaged, worn, incorrect, or missing fasters. The need for all combinations to correct that problem was a requirement. After all, how could any shop have a good reputation without addressing that issue. My customers quickly learn that if they want a Wing put together with their incorrect fasteners, they'll need to go elsewhere, and elsewhere is usually not a good choice. For example, if an engine cover has a worn grommet and they don't want it fixed, they get to be the one reinstalling their engine cover ... I have no interest in taking on their liability of their cover flying off.

Another was separating myself from bad forum habits and myths. In the beginning, I started supporting some of them, but in the back of my mind, I knew that if I didn't separate myself from all of them, I'd be known as a DIYr charging professional rates, and I'd never achieve the premier status I was looking to achieve.

The shops around me, independent or dealerships, all advised me that GW people were cheap. I was sure that was not true. From my past experience in managing many automotive repair shops, it'd been my experience being cheap was another ways of someone saying they did't have confidence in my expertise, or that because of my expertise, or lets say lack of, that I was attracting the wrong group of customers. Fortunately for me, I'd managed lots of Firestones and Goodyear shops to have learned that. Often stepping into the worst Firestone in the district, only to quickly turn it around by attracting a completely different customer base. Knowing how to choose a customer base is critical to the success of managing a shop. Because there is no such thing as helping all GW customers, the ones I want to help are the ones I best can.

Above all is quality of work with proper diagnosis. No customer likes to take something back, and no shop likes that either. At Firestone, I'd also learned that a 4% comeback ratio was very low and hard to achieve when using aftermarket parts. If I did the same repair using OEM parts, that ratio was 2%. Fortunately for most and me too, in the GL1800 world, there's hardly any aftermarket repair parts. However there are some ... such as brake pads and guess what, because the dealers compete with one-another, those are the pads used at the local dealers. So right off the bat, when it comes to simple brake work, the dealers have twice as many comebacks compared to me, and we know how GW owners talk. Also, if you walk into my shop you don't see aftermarket chrome on my walls ... why ... because I'm not an accessory center that does repair also. Instead, I want to be known as a repair center ... I have OEM 5th gen hoses hanging down from above. Also, aftermarket parts have high fail rates which again leads to a reputation I'm not seeking. I'd rather have the customer supply their aftermarket accessories, that way when another owners asks where his came from, the answer is not JustWings, but instead probably some aftermarket supply house.

The other thing I'd learned while working for those corporate tire stores are how to run work through a shop efficiently, and how customers want to be treated. Which has a lot to do with up-front trust. Although I'm not getting rich, my reward is attracting customers from everywhere in the USA. Often, my shop is their destination. When I ask how they found out about me, it's not unusual for someone to say they were a some rest stop in Utah, when another GW pulled in, they started chatting, and my business card was handed to them. How the first guy got my card, I have no idea but most who leave my shop take several with them. Word of mouth is by far the best advertising. That word of mouth advertising has now turned into many other shops recommending me. For example, another shop who works on this customers Wing often, sent him to me to fix a CB issue. With all that I just mentioned about, and even though this guy came 100 miles away, JustWings just got a new customer for everything in the future that owner may need.

Although my shop also attracts mechanics who own Gas, recently I've had a couple of m/c mechanics trust their work with me. One came from another GW shop that works on all generations of Gas, and he used to work there. He's now in a financial position to pay for work. The reason he came to me ... he no longer had confidence in the work being performed at the other shop.

peppilepew
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by peppilepew » Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:37 pm

I'm sure you heard of Jim Venny of Venco wings in Loudon, NH. Jim passed some years back. I took a liking to Jim right from the get go. He was always eager to help. Like you stated, he had the same outlook as many other motorcycle shops. He stated on more than one occasion that GW owners are cheap-wingers. Jim and his brother worked hard to satisfy all. As you state, targeting the correct customer base and providing for their needs is crucial to any shops survival. The transmission industry has been in the pooper since the final months of 2015. What I have learned is that when there are more problems than solutions, you have either done something wrong, or the deck is stacked against you. Not every business is capable of success, or returning from the dead. I had a conversation with Jim about his struggles. I stated to Jim basically what you just said, you need different customers. Another transmission shop owner I knew (also passed) told me early on that if customers aren't complaining about price, then you aren't charging enough. His son burn't the shop down just before the eviction for non-payment of rent was delivered. Charge a fair price and deliver it fixed right the first time and they will be back. I didn't advertise as for a long time word of mouth drove my small repair shop. I would test drive before any repair. This was crucial in understanding the complaint and noting any other conditions before hand. As careful as I was, there were still those that came back stating my radio doesn't work now that you changed my transmission fluid. I would run every repaired car about 50 miles before delivery. I cleaned the floor before letting a repaired car down. I would leak check three times. I went as far as washing and backing their car in so they could just pull out and leave. In the end it wasn't enough. Our system has developed consumers programmed to seek price, not quality. That's where we are today. Parts in my industry played a part in my succumbing. Factory torque converters and repair parts drove the price out of competitive pricing. We were forced to use aftermarket as people are shoppers today. Consequently things like valve bodies and torque converters had a high failure rate. Your situation is different. There are no after market manufacturers of wing parts. If you find something after market it is most likely manufactured by the same OEM company Honda contracts to. So in actuality it is OE anyway. The transmission business has many similarities.

I wish to thank you for the interest in my situation.

I want to add something here for others. I'm going through this 44K mile bike thoroughly. I'm lucky to have the tools and heated shop I added last year. Now many of you like the after market add-ons which personalize your machine. I did all of that. I'm not a chrome person so I have negated the bling. I added cameras which failed, LED lights that also failed, All-balls stem bearings which failed, highway pegs that the chrome is all but completely peeled, LED headlights which are all but impossible to adjust properly.... My point is listen to the professionals. The majority of aftermarket products are troublesome and not worth the effort, or money. I am now taking much of it out and going back to stock. Seek out knowledgeable people like Greg before hitting buy it now. So often these products cause grief at the most inopportune times.

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Re: Fuel odor

Post by WingAdmin » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:59 am

GoldWingrGreg wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:14 pm
Long story short ... there are over 70 parts missing on this Wing ... from air-box air snorkels, to fresh air ducks, routing brackets, heat vent cable ... and the list continues. His engine needs pulled to correct coolant leaks from the hoses under the intake manifold. He's leaving here with a bill of over $8,400 plus his shipping to get it here, plus his flight to come and get it. Actually, while it is here, $1,300 of that is for LED headlamps, fog lamps, and turn signal lighting. Keep in mind this all add'l to what he'd originally paid to have his engine removed and repair the 1st time.
My jaw is on the floor reading this. Just wow.

If I was that owner, I would be taking that detailed bill from you and going straight to my lawyer's office.

peppilepew
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by peppilepew » Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:34 am

WingAdmin wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:59 am
GoldWingrGreg wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:14 pm
Long story short ... there are over 70 parts missing on this Wing ... from air-box air snorkels, to fresh air ducks, routing brackets, heat vent cable ... and the list continues. His engine needs pulled to correct coolant leaks from the hoses under the intake manifold. He's leaving here with a bill of over $8,400 plus his shipping to get it here, plus his flight to come and get it. Actually, while it is here, $1,300 of that is for LED headlamps, fog lamps, and turn signal lighting. Keep in mind this all add'l to what he'd originally paid to have his engine removed and repair the 1st time.
My jaw is on the floor reading this. Just wow.

If I was that owner, I would be taking that detailed bill from you and going straight to my lawyer's office.
We as consumers must do our due diligence. Trusting anyone who states claim of qualifications is in itself not enough justifacition for allowing them the go ahead. I would suit the pants off them. I honestly think all things said I got off easy. The gear replacement was successful and the engine did not require removal to clean up mistakes. How can something so expensive and complicated be out of warranty in three months is my question.

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GoldWingrGreg
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by GoldWingrGreg » Sat May 02, 2020 10:25 am

GoldWingrGreg wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:13 pm

Although my shop also attracts mechanics who own Gas, recently I've had a couple of m/c mechanics trust their work with me. One came from another GW shop that works on all generations of Gas, and he used to work there. He's now in a financial position to pay for work. The reason he came to me ... he no longer had confidence in the work being performed at the other shop.
Regarding my above post. I believe this is what I was trying to say.

Although my shop also attracts mechanics who own their own GW, recently I've had a couple of m/c mechanics trust their work with me. One came from another GW shop that works on all generations of , and he used to work there. He's now in a financial position to pay for work. The reason he came to me ... he no longer had confidence in the work being performed at the other shop.

peppilepew
Posts: 477
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2012 GL1800 Level 3

Re: Fuel odor

Post by peppilepew » Sat May 02, 2020 12:21 pm

GoldWingrGreg wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 10:25 am
GoldWingrGreg wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:13 pm

Although my shop also attracts mechanics who own Gas, recently I've had a couple of m/c mechanics trust their work with me. One came from another GW shop that works on all generations of Gas, and he used to work there. He's now in a financial position to pay for work. The reason he came to me ... he no longer had confidence in the work being performed at the other shop.
Regarding my above post. I believe this is what I was trying to say.

Although my shop also attracts mechanics who own their own GW, recently I've had a couple of m/c mechanics trust their work with me. One came from another GW shop that works on all generations of , and he used to work there. He's now in a financial position to pay for work. The reason he came to me ... he no longer had confidence in the work being performed at the other shop.
Got that. Experience with secondary brake issues?

This is a very strange issue. This problem began after the secondary master was replaced under recall. I have had nothing but issues with dealer repair work so going back is not an option. I just finished correcting every other problem created and don't want any more. I have a pressure bleeder. I hooked it up and pumped a good amount of fluid through the secondary system. There was no change. The pedal bottoms without actuating the brakes. It does pump up and get firm. It takes 2 pumps. Fluid draws down, then returns to the reservoir within 10 seconds. The hand brake is perfect. I read something about a junction block which has a tendency to trap air. A pressure bleeder should push the air out. It's almost like one of the ABS accumulators is pressurizing before the caliper pistons extend. Anyone had a similar issue? I know most that frequent dealers have issues, the other issue. :D

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Re: Fuel odor

Post by MikeB » Sat May 02, 2020 12:38 pm

I have heard that if a bubble gets trapped in the Proportional Control Valve, you can have some real problems.


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Techdude2000
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by Techdude2000 » Sat May 02, 2020 1:59 pm

Sounds like you need the Rocky bleed. There’s a junction box on the left side of the frame near the steering stem that is the line that runs from the secondary master to the proportional control valve. Air can get trapped there because it’s the highest point on the rear system. You have to activate the secondary master cylinder by hand and crack open the flare nut on the hard line running down the frame to let the air out. This will correct the spongy rear pedal. This was posted by Rocky on another board and has fixed many bikes with this issue. To see the junction, look up under the front fairing at the frame and you will see a rectangular metal junction that has lines screwed into it. It’s on the right side looking at it from the front of the bike. This is the spot where the air bubble will get stuck and you can bleed it all day at the caliper and never get this bubble out. A lot of 1800s came from the factory with air stuck in this location along with the spongy rear brakes as a result.

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Re: Fuel odor

Post by GoldWingrGreg » Sat May 02, 2020 3:46 pm

peppilepew wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 12:21 pm

This is a very strange issue. This problem began after the secondary master was replaced under recall. I have had nothing but issues with dealer repair work so going back is not an option. I just finished correcting every other problem created and don't want any more. I have a pressure bleeder. I hooked it up and pumped a good amount of fluid through the secondary system. There was no change. The pedal bottoms without actuating the brakes. It does pump up and get firm. It takes 2 pumps. Fluid draws down, then returns to the reservoir within 10 seconds. The hand brake is perfect. I read something about a junction block which has a tendency to trap air. A pressure bleeder should push the air out. It's almost like one of the ABS accumulators is pressurizing before the caliper pistons extend. Anyone had a similar issue? I know most that frequent dealers have issues, the other issue. :D
So you are using a pressure bleeder and not a sucker ???

Have you tired manually bleeding. Using that method at least lets us know if the m/c pumps. Do you have any fluid leaks ??? When you first push down on the rear brake lever, does the peddle go all the way to the bottom and pump up from there ??? How many pumps does it take to become a high peddle ???

By your description, to me it sounds like major air in the system, or a bad m/c.

peppilepew
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Re: Fuel odor

Post by peppilepew » Tue May 05, 2020 4:50 pm

GoldWingrGreg wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 3:46 pm
peppilepew wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 12:21 pm

This is a very strange issue. This problem began after the secondary master was replaced under recall. I have had nothing but issues with dealer repair work so going back is not an option. I just finished correcting every other problem created and don't want any more. I have a pressure bleeder. I hooked it up and pumped a good amount of fluid through the secondary system. There was no change. The pedal bottoms without actuating the brakes. It does pump up and get firm. It takes 2 pumps. Fluid draws down, then returns to the reservoir within 10 seconds. The hand brake is perfect. I read something about a junction block which has a tendency to trap air. A pressure bleeder should push the air out. It's almost like one of the ABS accumulators is pressurizing before the caliper pistons extend. Anyone had a similar issue? I know most that frequent dealers have issues, the other issue. :D
So you are using a pressure bleeder and not a sucker ???

Have you tired manually bleeding. Using that method at least lets us know if the m/c pumps. Do you have any fluid leaks ??? When you first push down on the rear brake lever, does the peddle go all the way to the bottom and pump up from there ??? How many pumps does it take to become a high peddle ???

By your description, to me it sounds like major air in the system, or a bad m/c.

There was an air bubble. I did both methods at first, pressure and pedal. Neither worked. The master is new. Replaced during recall. Another dealer repair issue. It took 3 pumps for the pedal to be firm and right there. The tip off to air was the fluid being drawn down while pumping, and the fluid rise in the reservoir after releasing the foot pedal. I ended up having my wife pump the pedal with the pressure bleeder attached. I did all 4 flare fittings at the rear ABS actuator. It was not necessary to bleed at the PCV. It is now fixed.

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Re: Fuel odor

Post by Terry D » Fri May 22, 2020 9:27 pm

AZgl1800 wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:09 am
an Impact Wrench does not even belong in the same building that a motorcycle is being worked on.

hope that seat bolts were replaced, they are ruined. and maybe the threads in the frame attachment points?
I'm wondering if it was an impact wrench or an air ratchet wrench. I have two, a 3/8 and 1/4 inch drives. They are so handy. Many of us at the Dealer I worked for had them. We would turn them down to the lowest setting and then check the torques.
It ain't the destination but the getting there. You are not lost until you run out of gas.

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Re: Fuel odor

Post by peppilepew » Sat May 23, 2020 7:01 am

Terry D wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 9:27 pm
AZgl1800 wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:09 am
an Impact Wrench does not even belong in the same building that a motorcycle is being worked on.

hope that seat bolts were replaced, they are ruined. and maybe the threads in the frame attachment points?
I'm wondering if it was an impact wrench or an air ratchet wrench. I have two, a 3/8 and 1/4 inch drives. They are so handy. Many of us at the Dealer I worked for had them. We would turn them down to the lowest setting and then check the torques.
Cordless 20 volt impact. This guy wasn't careful about anything. He belonged at a cobbler.



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